Dog Laying down on Whoa

[hunter94]

11 month old pup. will whoa when walking at heel.....allows me to walk around him, go to the front, kick the grass and return.....steady as a rock....on sidewalk.
in the field he refuses to stand and stay when given the whoa command....when given the whoa command off lead, at heal, or on the run..completely ignores the command or if on lead will sit/lay down.
birds in launcher or working no bird at all...doesn't matter.

remedy?

[slistoe]

Back to the yard. He doesn't completely understand the command. Every time you "test" him to see if he will respond correctly you are teaching him that the command is optional in that situation. Work him where he knows to obey then step to the side of the sidewalk as you are walking on to the grass and give the command. Over time you can move further from the walk. Then you can whoa him on the sidewalk (the place you say he knows how to obey the command), move off a ways and call him to you - whoa him when he gets to you. Then whoa him a bit further out from you as he is coming in. Let him walk on the sidewalk on leash but forge ahead a little and whoa him when he is ahead of you. Gradually get him to learn that whoa is not for only when he is beside you. Then move to the side of the sidewalk and work the same routines... Baby steps will get you to the finish line.

[Drahthaar1108]

I would start over in the yard , I use the same bench I use to FF. say whoa (with a short check cord attached) start walking around him if he moves put him back where he was, then I go to the yard with a whoa post , a check cord tied to the post and run it to his collar, then another check cord snapped to his collar and a half hitch around his flank, HE CAN NOT LAY DOWN. once you have him standing, have several set up in you yard in different places, move to each one, then away from the whoa post to just running in the field with a check cord , then remove the check cord. Hope this helps . Forrest

[blue04]

I second the suggestion about a check cord around the flank. It works.

My (somewhat educated) guess is that the dog is sitting/laying because he's either feeling too much pressure or doesn't understand what's being asked of him. I'd also guess you taught "sit" and "lay down" very early and that he's pretty solid on these commands. Dog's will revert to commands they've had success with in the past when they are feeling too much pressure (physical pressure or mental pressure) or when they are confused about what's being asked but still trying to please. They use this behavior as an escape valve.

[flitecontrol]

Use a training table; it makes it easier on you and the dog. Here's a thread on how to use one. http://www.versatiledogs.com/ask/point31.html

And a video of how to make one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhfCxbS4rR8

[mtbirder]

^^^ This is the exact setup I used. My Grif pup picked up quickly on this exact method on this exact same backyard bench.........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzsjqIKDieg

[GONEHUNTIN']

Teach him "UP", "stand", whatever. Just make sure he has a command for down, one for whoa and one to stand. That way when he lies down you have a command to make him stand. I'm guessing you taught him down and used some pressure. When you do that, many times DOWN will then become the dog's default response to any sharp command.

[hunter94]

thanks guys......today i healed him and whoa-ed him on the grass surface........never moved a muscle. he knows the command.....will work on stand command next.
i think he might have felt some pressure when working in the field about 10 days ago......he was pulling hard to bust his point, need to work him on a shorter lead.
he is still a big chaser of birds, hard to find reliable birds that can escape without him catching them....so going back to the launchers and going to be silent.
will keep him on the check cord to stop him when he points, through the flush. not using e-collar when he is around birds...just check cord.
he is FF'd as well.

[orhunter]

One thing (in my opinion) is speaking to your dog in the presence of birds. Let the dog work the birds or it will never develop a true point. If you get the dog to stop, it is obeying a command, not pointing. Talking makes a dog nervous as it interferes with the natural instinct. The check cord doesn’t help either. Dog may have learned pulling is part of the game.

First thing is to take the dog completely off birds for at least a couple of months (maybe longer) so it loses it’s oppotunity to do the wrong thing. Work on the yard stuff. Intergrate the e-collar by using the tone/vibration when working on whoa and maybe some other stuff. The dog should wear the collar any time you are training or just out for a run so the dog associates the collar with having fun and learning. No shocking during these activities.

Chasing: Fine for puppies, not for hunting dogs. You have the e-collar, use it. I always allowed my dog to run up to where the bird flushed so it could find and point stragglers. If the dog went further, I pushed the button and held it down till the dog stopped. Had the collar set very low so as not to alarm the dog. Don’t use volts if you can get the correct response by using the tone/vibration. The tone/vibration is a command, same as verbal. You want to wean your dog from relying on verbal commands. Silence in the field.

[AverageGuy]

thanks guys......today i healed him and whoa-ed him on the grass surface........never moved a muscle. he knows the command.....will work on stand command next.
i think he might have felt some pressure when working in the field about 10 days ago......he was pulling hard to bust his point, need to work him on a shorter lead.
he is still a big chaser of birds, hard to find reliable birds that can escape without him catching them....so going back to the launchers and going to be silent.
will keep him on the check cord to stop him when he points, through the flush. not using e-collar when he is around birds...just check cord.
he is FF'd as well.

I am not sure what you are working on with the dog at the moment.

If you are trying to build/bring out the dog's pointing behavior, using strong flying pigeons in launchers, bringing the dog in cross wind and launching the bird the moment the dog turns and advances towards the bird if it does not point, is how I go about it. I stay silent. When the dog begins to hold its points, I advance towards the launcher from the side or ideally from the front, ready to launch the bird if the dog moves. When the dog will hold and allow me to be close to the launcher, (assuming gun fire introduction has been done), I begin launching and shooting the bird.

If you are instead trying to teach steadiness after the bird flies, I first teach Whoa thoroughly away from birds. When the dog will Whoa reliably in many situations and distractions, we are ready to add flying birds to the training. At that stage I have an assistant walk downwind of the dog while the dog is on a check cord and complying with the trained Whoa command. The assistant releases pigeons from a bag they are carrying. If the dog moves I correct it and require it to Whoa. You are using the flying bird as a visual but not using the scent or the dog pointing the bird in this exercise. Start with the person releasing the pigeons being 50 yards away to lessen the stimulation for the dog and build early success. As the dog begins to stand well as it should the person will move closer to the dog as they release birds.

Trying to teach steadiness to flying birds off of the young dog's points puts alot more pressure on the dog which is not helpful at this stage of training.

[hunter94]

thanks, i will let the bird on point teach the dog........that is the direction i am already going....with launchers, exactly as you describe.
yes, steadiness, to a command to stop and stay is what i am after..whoa......stand still, don't move.
just a verbal command or vibration from the collar to tell him to stop and stand.
trying to teach too much at once?

[AverageGuy]

I have had success working my pups on the pigeons in launchers as described. They learn to point and hold point and then I shoot the bird and let them retrieve it. The pup then understands that pointing the bird is the best and only strategy to get one in its mouth. I will hunt a puppy developed in the manner through its first hunting season before I begin working on steadying the pup to stand a flying and or falling shot bird.

At the same time, but completely away from birds I will be teaching the pup the Whoa command in many situations. Walking at heel, then whoa'd with me walking away and all around, returning to the pup to release it and heel on. Whoaing the pup when I come to a door, and me walking through first and then releasing it to come to me. I overlay a whistle que for the Whoa command and get to where I can stop the pup on a run in the field and it will stand in place until I release it.

Once your pup is reliably pointing and holding point, and it is also 100% reliable in the Whoa command in all situations away from birds, you can begin combining the two, first using the released bag bird exercise I posted. Get that down next. The final stage of this will be requiring the dog to remain steady when a bird it has pointed is flushed and flies off.

You and your pup are not ready for that step.

Hope this is clear and helpful. The process I am using is illustrated very well in the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs if you are inclined to spend some money on some excellent training materials.

[GONEHUNTIN']

I personally never take a dog off birds, even during FF I let them point. The important thing with launchers is CROSS WIND. Which is what AG said. Just want to make sure you caught that. The absolute worst is to bring him in downwind. It will promote creeping. Cross wind the scent hits the dog instantly and freezes him. The lighter the cover the better; you'll get a truer wind direction. In tall cover the scent bounces all over the place.

[hunter94]

thanks, this dog has been a challenge to train, had a WHV and a PP and they were easy. This GWP is stubborn and independent as hell. If I let him, he will self hunt at
200-300 yards all day long and bust birds doing it.....he is fixated on running, period. Trying to reign him in. Not sure if he will grow out of it or not? Don't want to pressure him too much. damn pigeons are hard to come by where i live and nowhere to keep any homers, using pen raised quail. Never easy when you live in town.
going to try him on the MBP concept tomorrow and Saturday. i always lead him in on a crosswind set up.

[AverageGuy]

hunter94- What State do you live in?