VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby Higgins » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:14 pm

Here is a video from a while ago of a dog learning that steadiness pays off. Let me set this up. The dog has been shown, using a checkcord, that being steady and relying on the shooter to get the bird is the new strategy. This is not a pointing drill. I'm helping the dog build trust in the shooter. I want the dog to learn that the shooter is valuable and is needed for the reward (a bird in his mouth). In this video, the dog has now been released to see if he still wants to try it himself. He runs to the Magic Brushpile and tries to get the bird. He fails, comes back and asks for a do over. Neat stuff.

https://www.facebook.com/10000876327053 ... 8763270531
Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette:

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.
Higgins
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Nevada

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby flitecontrol » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:11 am

I'm confused by the video. It appears the dog is learning that if it flushes birds but eventually comes back to the handler and stands there (doesn't look like it's pointing), it will get a bird in its mouth, even without a point and shot. Why not just train the dog to point the bird to begin with? I want mine to be steady every time, not once in a while.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby orhunter » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:39 am

Flitecontrol: Pointing is instinct, we don’t teach it. We simply introduce a dog to a situation where it can/should occurr. Steadiness is taught.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7763
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby flitecontrol » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:05 pm

flitecontrol wrote:I'm confused by the video. It appears the dog is learning that if it flushes birds but eventually comes back to the handler and stands there (doesn't look like it's pointing), it will get a bird in its mouth, even without a point and shot. Why not just train the dog to point the bird to begin with? I want mine to be steady every time, not once in a while.


orhunter wrote:Flitecontrol: Pointing is instinct, we don’t teach it. We simply introduce a dog to a situation where it can/should occurr. Steadiness is taught.


OK, I'll rephrase my statement. "Why not have the dog point before rewarding it with a bird in its mouth" I don't see any evidence that that dog ever pointed, just busted birds, came back to handler, stood, and then was tossed a bird. What does that train the dog to do?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby Willie T » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:47 pm

The dog learns that the retrieve comes through the handler.

I teach something similar with retrieves where if the dog breaks, I pick up the bird. When the dog is steady and marks the bird down, then waits till it is released for the retrieve. Then gunfire is added. Then it can easily be added to the point for steady to wing shot and fall. It is also the beginning point of teaching a dog to Mark multiple falls.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby flitecontrol » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:06 pm

Willie T wrote:The dog learns that the retrieve comes through the handler.


Couldn't that be instilled with bumpers? It still looks like rewarding the dog for busting birds to me. The dog is learning that even if it busts birds, as long as it returns to the handler and remains there, it's going to get a bird. How does that teach the dog how to handle wild birds? I see no problem with having the dog retrieve frozen or freshly killed birds; just not after it's done something you really don't want it to do later on.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby Willie T » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:08 pm

flitecontrol wrote:
Willie T wrote:The dog learns that the retrieve comes through the handler.


Couldn't that be instilled with bumpers? It still looks like rewarding the dog for busting birds to me. The dog is learning that even if it busts birds, as long as it returns to the handler and remains there, it's going to get a bird. How does that teach the dog how to handle wild birds? I see no problem with having the dog retrieve frozen or freshly killed birds; just not after it's done something you really don't want it to do later on.


First off excuse the rambling reply in advance that is about to follow.

What I saw the dog had not learned much if anything about wild birds. That video goes about things a bit differently than I do but I also don't know much about that dog up to that short video clip. Saying that, what I do see is the beginning of introducing the CONCEPT that the dog can not catch the bird but instead must go through the handler to get its mouth on it.

Now to the rambling part:
I think a lot of people make way to big of a deal about a young puppy chasing birds. If a puppy does not love birds enough to want to chase and try to catch them, I don't want it. It is that same desire that will pull the dog to run through snow, ice, briars, cactus, sand burrs and all manner of tough cover, in the single minded quest to seek and find birds. When he starts pointing them on his own, we can help to steady him up, but not before. As to learning to handle wild birds, it is my honest opinion that nothing teaches that better than wild birds. Lots of wild birds and a patient handler that is willing to free the dog up enough to let the birds teach him.(you have to have access to plenty of birds though)
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby Higgins » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:00 pm

More fuel for the fire. :)

VIDEO: The Higgins Method and the Magic Brushpile Revisited
https://youtu.be/a7lMP9SF_dQ

Enjoy
Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette:

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.
Higgins
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Nevada

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:46 pm

Mr. Higgins,
Once again i need to point out that the checkcord is in fact inhibiting the dogs actions. If it wasnt and the dog was actually learning something on his own, you would not need the check cord. No matter how loose, he knows you are holding , the aint stupid.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby Higgins » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:04 am

Kiger2 wrote:

"Mr. Higgins,
Once again i need to point out that the checkcord is in fact inhibiting the dogs actions. If it wasnt and the dog was actually learning something on his own, you would not need the check cord. No matter how loose, he knows you are holding , the aint stupid."



Hello Kiger2,

In addition to the dogs, I train hawks and falcons to hunt with their owners. A major difference in my method is that I use the line as a *creance ( a falconry term), not a checkcord. I don't call it a checkcord because a checkcord is a different tool used in a different way. Dogs that have learned with my method don't see the creance as an obedience or training tool. I can go into more depth if anyone is interested.

I always talk about giving the dogs free will to make choices and decisions. I use the creance in the beginning to slow the dogs down and show them how I can help them be successful in getting that bird in their mouth. I believe they need to see the final goal first, so they have the information necessary to begin making decisions. I want them to know what success looks like first (I guess from the point of view of the obedience based methods, I would be seen as training a dog backwards). Once they have some experience and understand how to be successful, I remove the creance. I never punish them for trying things or making mistakes. There is no “whoa”. The only punishment used, if you could call it that, is in the lack of success. And that’s between the dog and the bird. I’m still the good guy!

*Creance: “A line or cord attached to the hawk during early training”. This is how I use a “checkcord”. It’s not about obedience. Once I show them how to be successful using the creance, it is removed and they are “flown free”. There is no pressure or obedience here. In early training, I’m simply managing success.
Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette:

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.
Higgins
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Nevada

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:30 pm

Mr, Higgins.

One of my favorite lines in television is from the Simpsons.

Bart to cop: Hey man, can i see your club?

Cop: its not a club its a baton.

Bart: what do you do with it?

Cop: Club people!

Kiger to higgins: hey can i see your checkcord?

Higgins: Its not checkcord its creance.

Kiger: What do you do with it?

Higgins: Use it as a checkcord.

Sorry, theres no way the dog doesnt see it as a restraint.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby PL_Guy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:41 am

The only punishment used, if you could call it that, is in the lack of success.


It IS PUNISHMENT if the future frequency of the preceding undesired behavior decreases - by the formal behaviorist definition of PUNISHMENT.

That result of "lack of success" (pointing) is the natural, usual, progression of a young pointing dog's behavior on birds in the cases where the dog isn't naturally staunch. One does need to be aware of and ready to pursue a different approach with those dogs which find the flush of a bird or the rush resulting from a happy chase to be pleasant (REINFORCEMENT in the same vernacular).

Jere
"Speak your truth quietly & clearly; ... Avoid loud & aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit."
So much to learn, So little time!
User avatar
PL_Guy
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: When at home: Seldovia, Alaska; otherwise: almost anywhere

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:47 pm

PL_Guy wrote:One does need to be aware of and ready to pursue a different approach with those dogs which find the flush of a bird or the rush resulting from a happy chase to be pleasant (REINFORCEMENT in the same vernacular).

Jere


Right On!
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:33 pm

Some dogs will NEVER quit the chase unless MADE to quit the chase. They'd rather chase than point.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: VIDEO: Learning That Steadiness Pays Off

Postby PL_Guy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:27 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Some dogs will NEVER quit the chase unless MADE to quit the chase. They'd rather chase than point.

Yep! And to add a little, some dogs just get pleasure from running. They might "get off" on a short chase and then take off on a wild run. If running is fun (pleasurable) then it can be reinforcement of the previous behavior or sequence of behaviors and that behavior will increase in the future. Not good.

Jere
"Speak your truth quietly & clearly; ... Avoid loud & aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit."
So much to learn, So little time!
User avatar
PL_Guy
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: When at home: Seldovia, Alaska; otherwise: almost anywhere

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

cron