FF During Season????

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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:54 pm

Keep in mind that the jowl pinch she is doing is a prelude to the force she will do. Not quite fair to compare the hold portion the the toe hitch or ear pinch. The hold is done there before the pinch too. But as I said before, she could and maybe does, go through the entire FF with jowl pressure only.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:04 am

Kiger2 wrote:Do you know what the nice German Fraulein does to make a living? Shes a magician and she uses it in the video. While you were watching the hand with the cheese doing PR, her other had was using pressure conditioning. So its not a video about PR, its a video about Jowl pressure as Gonhuntin suggested.

So no, I dont believe PR is here to stay. It has a long ways to go. I use PR methods but PR cant take you to the dogs best work.

Also , I dont beleiev PR provides a better relationship. Dogs love discipline. While I cant really put in words how it works. Ive seen with my own dogs the adavnatge of using PC.


Kiger: it's called cognitive dissonance. Sort of what happens inside your brain when you get newer facts that suggest you're wrong. "It can't be! It's not! ... And now I have proof - she cheated! Not the cheese! I was right all along". Then you just double down on the same old beliefs that got questioned in the first place and that makes you feel better.

View this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9lCsOxhu4 which I've posted before. Once again, it's a four month old puppy that learned a number of skills in a week or so with PR, including fetch. No jowl pinch involved. Tell me again PR is not here to stay.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:57 am

ANick wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:OK,
Some interesting stuff.

<< Snipped for brevity >>

A couple of other notes.

Do you know what the nice German Fraulein does to make a living? Shes a magician and she uses it in the video. While you were watching the hand with the cheese doing PR, her other had was using pressure conditioning. So its not a video about PR, its a video about Jowl pressure as Gonhuntin suggested.

So no, I dont believe PR is here to stay. It has a long ways to go. I use PR methods but PR cant take you to the dogs best work.

Also , I dont beleiev PR provides a better relationship. Dogs love discipline. While I cant really put in words how it works. Ive seen with my own dogs the adavnatge of using PC.


Kiger,
Watch that video again. Jen explains exactly how she's gripping that muzzle and how much 'pressure' she'd putting on that pup. There's no slight of hand involved.
Mind, this pup is in front of a bunch of people and other dogs that she's had a day or so to socialize some. The pup's feet are on the floor with a lead held by one of these strangers. The pup is also just 5 months old.
There's 'pressure' to put the buck in the mouth. Really light pressure, but still. Kept in the jaws by hand. Release word is given. Praise and cheese for a good job.
Repeat.
The pup picks up pretty quick that buck in mouth has something to do with a treat. No buck. No treat. Something wasn't right?? Pup gets a 'No' and no treat. Pup is learning what is expected, what the task is and that there's something in it for her she likes.. cheese.

Compare this to a dog strapped by the collar to a post with a toe-hitch. Work on that dog for a 5 -10 minutes and stop to talk to the group in front of you. While you're talking, I'm thinking that the dog on the table would be more interested in being somewhere else... anywhere else, much less even thinking of trying to put it's nose on that bumper some more?

There's pressure, and then there's Pressure.


You can't compare because the truth is a dog at that stage of FF process wouldn't be toe-hitched or ear pinched. Well I guess we can compare if we're just not interested in being honest about the FF process and when ear pinch (or toe hitch) actually happens. But the truth is, even with FF, nothing more would've been done to that dog at that stage. Short reps and praise.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:58 am

Kiger2 wrote:So no, I dont believe PR is here to stay. It has a long ways to go. I use PR methods but PR cant take you to the dogs best work.

Also , I dont beleiev PR provides a better relationship.


That is spit out your coffee funny. Legions of OB, Drug Detection, Police Work, Dock Dogs, Seeing Eye Dogs, Service Dogs, Herding Dogs, Agility Dogs ... Trained with PR beg to differ. Check out the NAVHDA post if you have not already for another data point.

I used to have a closed mind toward the marker/treat approach to training, but saw too much evidence of its success to ignore it any longer. I am working to get up to speed now and had a lot of success using it on my current dog. And I used ecollar overlay Pressure to proof what I had already trained with PR. Suited this dog's temperament to a T and he would not be unique in that.

Well done FF obviously works. The building block steps involved remain very instructive for those who might choose to deviate from the pain portion of traditional programs. Equally obvious is amateurs such as myself struggle to get it right to the degree that pro trainers do. On the other side of that is Amateurs enjoy a huge advantage over Pro Trainers in that they have so much more time to work with their puppies early and often using PR methods to shape their behavior at a much younger age than pressure methods can be applied.

By the time the puppy reaches the average age where a Pro would undertake a FF program an Amateur using PR and exposure can have the puppy doing a bang up job. As long as they ignore all the advice they will hear telling them it cannot be done.

(Context of my comment regarding Pro Trainers is someone bringing them a 10 month old or older puppy to train, many times with engrained bad habits, start of a problem, and or at a minimum missed opportunities to shape correct good behavior at a very young age, vs what Pros do with their own puppies, which is most often PR and Exposure earlier on)
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:43 am

I think it's important to understand something about PR.....it has ALWAYS been done by the good trainers. Ever watch a Pro dump a dog truck? Twenty dog's out bouncing around, begging for his attention, tails wagging. He trains with PR but uses praise and stroking as the reward, not food. There is NO QUESTION about how effective food is with puppies and young dog's and it has always been that way. Probably in the oldest training books you can find, the author promoted reward to pups. There is also NO QUESTION how effective aversive training is and when the two are combined in an intelligent and sequential manor, there is no system more effective anywhere. One difference is, a high drive dog of any breed cannot be trained to a high standard by PR only; Aversive has to be incorporated. However, Aversive CAN be the only method used to train a high drive dog and results will still be about the same.

Most of us feel that at 6-10 months, depending on the pup, it's time for the food to stop and the stroking to be the only reward. Depends on what we're doing with the pup, but that's a general guideline. You want the pup to perform for YOU, not for a chunk of cheese. A pro can't spend the time with pups like the private owner can; that's his curse. The regular owner is lazy and that's his curse. The one thing an amateur rarely beats a pro at is obedience and that's the thing they should kick his butt with. Why? It's boring, they don't enforce 100% and it takes time.

Don't kid yourself; PR is here to stay but ONLY with reinforcement from Aversive. But then again, for the accomplished trainers, that's the way it's always been.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:35 am

GH,

I am unclear on some details on the complete to the end product approach of some PR Trainers to be honest. I have a foot in both worlds and always have. My use of PR Marker/Treat has ramped up and the results were excellent but I don't think I could train out a gundog without my ecollar at this point. Some do however and apparently alot do in other working dog venues. So I am watching them to see what I can learn and apply to my small part of the world.

On the FF subject, JONOV posted earlier in the thread the point us Amateurs often reach where we are unsure if we are reading our pups correct at the pressure stages of FF. That rang true with me. Twice I bought 1:1 time with a Pro to get their eyes on me working my dogs on the table. Both times the pro suggested small helpful tweaks which matter, but the main benefit was their endorsement we were on the right track, that what was happening was normal and we should stay the course. I think the use of force/pressure is harder for new trainers to get right than is PR. Training the Trainer is always harder than training the dog. I know a guy using the standard pressure based FF melted down my current dog's littermate and I sure wish I had stepped forward and asked for the opportunity to work with the dog using the same approach I used with her littermate.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:49 am

With you AG all the way. The reason I don't believe a gun dog can be trained with PR only is that their drives are too great. How are you ever going to get a dog to stop chasing a deer with reward? Hell, you'd first have to catch him! Snake breaking same way. You going to give him a piece of cheese when he walks around a rattler? Then there's the 500 yard water blind past shot birds and scented points. Or, to simplify even more, to come when called when there's a hot bitch across the street. Then there's the miserable S.O.B.'s that simple flip you off and have NO tractability.

Time can also be a factor. I guarantee you I can turn virtually any dog into an acceptable gun dog in four months using a combination of the two methods. How long do you think it would take with PR and an untrained 10 month pup?

I would like to see far, far, more people using PR on young dog's and using it religiously. Gotta convince me on older dog's.

Force Fetch; as in all situations, reading the dog is critical. MORE PROBLEMS ARE CREATED IN FORCE FETCH BY TOO MUCH PRESSURE, NOT TOO LITTLE. Let's not muddy the water with comments on competition dog's. The AVERAGE hunter would be far better served to learn how to jowl pinch a dog and leave it at that. PERIOD. I have a video of a 5-6 month old DD pup I did a year ago that shows the response you can get but posting it is beyond me.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:07 pm

Yea, I trash broke a hound when I was 19 without an ecollar, but I was CONSIDERABLY more fleet of foot than I am these days :). And I spent a great deal of time working with that hound as a young puppy such that he cared about pleasing me as well as himself, so a few whippings made a sufficient impression on him. And he had excellent genetics for treeing such that I got him started treeing squirrels at 7 months because of it. So the contrast of positive results in hunting tree game vs the negative consequences of running fast game e.g. coyotes, deer was put into place early on. Many other hounds would differ from that and I never started my training with an older one.

These days they will have to pry my ecollar from my cold dead hands :). I rely on it in several key areas and continue to use it while hunting as it makes things go smooth/quiet and I like smooth/quiet.

I opened my own Youtube channel, uploaded my training videos to it making them public (which can take 20-30 minutes), and then copy and paste the link into posts such as these when I wanted to share them.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:09 pm

I think I did it! Here's the video of that pup I did for a guy having trouble with the jowl pinch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmv5I-yA5Xk&feature=youtu.be
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:20 pm

For you mainly AG. I think you'll get a kick out of this. Please notice that no pressure was used on the pup. I believe she was around 11 months at the time. It's a method I developed for people with no bird traps and limited access to birds. I make a harness for the pigeons feet and attach it to a musky rod with a bait casting reel on it. I can land the bird wherever I want or free spool the reel and let it fly a distance as I do at the end. Great for a guy with limited resources.

The pup knows WHOA (I use STOP) but as you can see, has a ways to go for total steadiness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p_wsSm_u-c&feature=youtu.be
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:43 pm

First video said unavailable when I clicked on it, Did you make it Public?

Second one is great. That pup did a very nice job and your timing and dexterity in moving the pigeon is impressive. I would have to practice that first I think.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:24 pm

AverageGuy wrote:First video said unavailable when I clicked on it, Did you make it Public?

Second one is great. That pup did a very nice job and your timing and dexterity in moving the pigeon is impressive. I would have to practice that first I think.


I think you can see the first video now.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:57 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:First video said unavailable when I clicked on it, Did you make it Public?

Second one is great. That pup did a very nice job and your timing and dexterity in moving the pigeon is impressive. I would have to practice that first I think.


I think you can see the first video now.


Yep, Pup understands each command and happily complies with each. Looks like a very nice training result to my eye.

Is the over the top of the muzzle grip how you teach the jowl pressure you have been discussing? Do you roll the jowls into the teeth some to initiate the dog opening its mouth when doing it?
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:30 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:First video said unavailable when I clicked on it, Did you make it Public?

Second one is great. That pup did a very nice job and your timing and dexterity in moving the pigeon is impressive. I would have to practice that first I think.


I think you can see the first video now.


Yep, Pup understands each command and happily complies with each. Looks like a very nice training result to my eye.

Is the over the top of the muzzle grip how you teach the jowl pressure you have been discussing? Do you roll the jowls into the teeth some to initiate the dog opening its mouth when doing it?


Yes, roll the upper jowls into the two canines and as soon as the bumper or buck is in pup's mouth, pull BACK on the jowls so they don't get pinched between the canines and the buck.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:08 pm

PR is a detailed process in how both trainers and dogs are taught. It is not intended for teaching the average gun dog but if you understand the principles behind it you can better train and understand your dog for gun dog training. And yes, it includes teaching the dog to accept and react to pressure, including the ecollar. Other disciplines like agility, schutzhund, French Ring, protection trainig, etc. require the dogs to learn intricate modalities that most of us never considered. The link below is an introduction by Michael Ellis. It's an hour long but if you hang in there for 30 minutes you should get an idea of where it's going. It answers a lot of questions and puts to rest a lot of misunderstandings. http://michaelellisschool.com/videos.htm
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