Handling and/or hand signals questions

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:41 am

flitecontrol wrote:You're right, the dog is getting confused with the addition of the bumpers. I'd try moving close to the "place" while she is retrieving, so when she delivers, she's very close to it, and less likely to wander. Then gradually move farther away, building on success. Once she get's it right a time or two, end that day's training.



I think I just need to do a couple short sessions with just the mat and then take a bumper or 2 in my vest and throw that if she does well and see how it goes. Maybe if she stops doing place, remove the bumpers again. That's my plan at least.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:54 am

booger wrote:
flitecontrol wrote:You're right, the dog is getting confused with the addition of the bumpers. I'd try moving close to the "place" while she is retrieving, so when she delivers, she's very close to it, and less likely to wander. Then gradually move farther away, building on success. Once she get's it right a time or two, end that day's training.



I think I just need to do a couple short sessions with just the mat and then take a bumper or 2 in my vest and throw that if she does well and see how it goes. Maybe if she stops doing place, remove the bumpers again. That's my plan at least.


So I did exactly this last night and it went much better. For some reason from closer she'll sit right on the mat, but from further away she'll barely be on it or right beside it. The first few bumpers did screw with her place command, but after not throwing more bumpers and mixing in more places, she did better.

I also bought a goose dokken to get her used to picking up geese. In the water it wasn't an issue, but on land last year she danced around a few geese like she didn't know what to do. She danced around the dokken for a while and after some encouragement, picked it up. I ended there.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby flitecontrol » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Many dogs have issues with picking up things that are much larger than they are used to. My shorthair clearly communicated "what the heck is this thing?!!" when he approached his first swan retrieve. He looked at the swan, then me, then back at the swan. It took him a minute to figure out how to grasp it correctly, but once he did, there were no more issues on subsequent retrieves. Live birds usually create more determination to retrieve than dummies.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
flitecontrol
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am
Location: Monroe, LA

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:43 am

Doc E wrote:Speaking of Evan Graham, he also has an excellent "T" and "TT" (double T)
program which you definitely need to do as well as "Swim By".

.


After watching some of the basic handling DVD, I can tell why you mentioned this. The basics on a lead and the mini T drill are something I need to try.

I wasn't a big fan of how he got the dog to sit quickly. The dog looked scared the whole time. That might work with a lab, I doubt I'd get a good result with my DD.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby crackerd » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:07 pm

booger wrote:
Doc E wrote:Speaking of Evan Graham, he also has an excellent "T" and "TT" (double T)
program which you definitely need to do as well as "Swim By."


After watching some of the basic handling DVD, I can tell why you mentioned this. The basics on a lead and the mini T drill are something I need to try.

I wasn't a big fan of how he got the dog to sit quickly. The dog looked scared the whole time. That might work with a lab, I doubt I'd get a good result with my DD.


So you got the SmartWorks retriever program, which was a good idea. But again, and not meant as disrespectful, it seems nobody has ventured telling you that the program needs to be followed sequentially, not doing drills or taking training steps haphazardly as you think might be best for you and your dog.

Everything you've sought input about on this forum, everything that you or the dog have experienced confusion over in your training, will be addressed in a retriever program. You may have tailor the program to fit your breed, but the sequential steps in training are called a "program" because it in fact entails taking a dog from a puppy to a finished retrieving gundog - if you let it. That's by following the program from the very start, and not by skipping steps or landing in the wrong chapter because you think your dog should have advanced that far even though its posture (confusion) tells you that ain't the case.

And it doesn't matter how old - or sometimes how young - your dog is when you initiate it into a program. You just need to follow directions, all of them, and all of them sequentially as the program spells out. It works - trust somebody who's gone through it with, oh, five or six different breeds...

Good luck,

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:33 pm

NIce post MG.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:20 pm

crackerd wrote:
booger wrote:
Doc E wrote:Speaking of Evan Graham, he also has an excellent "T" and "TT" (double T)
program which you definitely need to do as well as "Swim By."


After watching some of the basic handling DVD, I can tell why you mentioned this. The basics on a lead and the mini T drill are something I need to try.

I wasn't a big fan of how he got the dog to sit quickly. The dog looked scared the whole time. That might work with a lab, I doubt I'd get a good result with my DD.


So you got the SmartWorks retriever program, which was a good idea. But again, and not meant as disrespectful, it seems nobody has ventured telling you that the program needs to be followed sequentially, not doing drills or taking training steps haphazardly as you think might be best for you and your dog.

Everything you've sought input about on this forum, everything that you or the dog have experienced confusion over in your training, will be addressed in a retriever program. You may have tailor the program to fit your breed, but the sequential steps in training are called a "program" because it in fact entails taking a dog from a puppy to a finished retrieving gundog - if you let it. That's by following the program from the very start, and not by skipping steps or landing in the wrong chapter because you think your dog should have advanced that far even though its posture (confusion) tells you that ain't the case.

And it doesn't matter how old - or sometimes how young - your dog is when you initiate it into a program. You just need to follow directions, all of them, and all of them sequentially as the program spells out. It works - trust somebody who's gone through it with, oh, five or six different breeds...

Good luck,

MG


Wouldn't tailoring the program to fit the breed be doing the exact opposite of what you're suggesting?
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:40 pm

Not until later in the dog's training. Initially, all dog's go through the exact program; only the amount of pressure is varied. Later on, you can train for specific breed goals.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:32 pm

Booger,
As an example, Ive ecollar conditioned a beagle and a yorkie. Used the same process I use on Goldens , labs and GSP"s.

Heres an observation I made ears ago. whats the difference between training a lab and weiner dog? None, the weiner dog just flys further when you kick them!...... Obviously I dont kick dogs in training, had a friend that did though. I got him trained though. The point is while there are differences in breeds, the methods work well across them. Remember, they are variations within ret where individuals take pressure differently. Thats our job, to evaluate the dogs response.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1036
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:34 pm

Booger,
As an example, Ive ecollar conditioned a beagle and a yorkie. Used the same process I use on Goldens , labs and GSP"s.

Heres an observation I made ears ago. whats the difference between training a lab and weiner dog? None, the weiner dog just flys further when you kick them!...... Obviously I dont kick dogs in training, had a friend that did though. I got him trained though. The point is while there are differences in breeds, the methods work well across them. Remember, they are variations within ret where individuals take pressure differently. Thats our job, to evaluate the dogs response.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1036
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:55 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Booger,
As an example, Ive ecollar conditioned a beagle and a yorkie. Used the same process I use on Goldens , labs and GSP"s.

Heres an observation I made ears ago. whats the difference between training a lab and weiner dog? None, the weiner dog just flys further when you kick them!...... Obviously I dont kick dogs in training, had a friend that did though. I got him trained though. The point is while there are differences in breeds, the methods work well across them. Remember, they are variations within ret where individuals take pressure differently. Thats our job, to evaluate the dogs response.


The processes probably do work similarly. But it does make me wonder how many people have trained soft dogs. When Evan talks about giving a correction to a command to get a better reaction to the following command, I absolutely knew that would not work with my dog. Her reactions always get worse after a correction and if the corrections continue, the following commands only get slower until eventual complete non action to ANY command. I suppose that would be too harsh a correction but it's hard to know with a soft dog if a hard "no" will be too much sometimes.

My buddy's lab who he barely works with, learns in about 1/10 the time my dog does. He hasn't force fetched the dog, he hasn't followed any program. It is also his first dog. His dog is also not soft.

I watched some more of the basic handling DVD and have some ideas on what to do next, which is what I was looking for.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Willie T » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:35 am

Booger, it appears to me you are struggling mightily. I think finding a mentor to help you hands on will help you and your dog. My size up is your dog is confused.
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:42 am

booger wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:Booger,
As an example, Ive ecollar conditioned a beagle and a yorkie. Used the same process I use on Goldens , labs and GSP"s.

Heres an observation I made ears ago. whats the difference between training a lab and weiner dog? None, the weiner dog just flys further when you kick them!...... Obviously I dont kick dogs in training, had a friend that did though. I got him trained though. The point is while there are differences in breeds, the methods work well across them. Remember, they are variations within ret where individuals take pressure differently. Thats our job, to evaluate the dogs response.


The processes probably do work similarly. But it does make me wonder how many people have trained soft dogs. When Evan talks about giving a correction to a command to get a better reaction to the following command, I absolutely knew that would not work with my dog. Her reactions always get worse after a correction and if the corrections continue, the following commands only get slower until eventual complete non action to ANY command. I suppose that would be too harsh a correction but it's hard to know with a soft dog if a hard "no" will be too much sometimes.

My buddy's lab who he barely works with, learns in about 1/10 the time my dog does. He hasn't force fetched the dog, he hasn't followed any program. It is also his first dog. His dog is also not soft.

I watched some more of the basic handling DVD and have some ideas on what to do next, which is what I was looking for.


I've trained hundreds of dog's of all breeds Booger. You have to READ AND UNDERSTAND what is said. A soft dog has to go through the program, they just do it with less pressure. Your dog may not be as soft as you think; it may be training YOU.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby crackerd » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:14 am

booger wrote:Wouldn't tailoring the program to fit the breed be doing the exact opposite of what you're suggesting?


GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Not until later in the dog's training. Initially, all dog's go through the exact program; only the amount of pressure is varied. Later on, you can train for specific breed goals.


Kiger2 wrote:Booger,
As an example, I've ecollar conditioned a beagle and a yorkie. Used the same process I use on Goldens , labs and GSP's.


So the tailoring comes into play with several considerations - including dog's temperament, size (as intimated by Kiger), distances, and reps (as often noted by GH).

For example, I didn't force a 25-pound Boykin spaniel to go 100 yards to a pile on every rep, didn't require a dozen reps per training session at the distance decided upon for pile work and double-T; didn't use a 60' x 40' swim-by pond, or need 200-yard pattern blinds to get retriever training imparted. But by shortening sessions, halving the "platform," and the distances and the reps to fit the dog, rather than vice versa, the dog got through it with flying colors and attitude, and became the straightest-line blind runner I've ever had. You could replace the "YMMV" acronym in retriever training with the idea that you'll get better mileage - and handling! - from a smaller engine if you don't try to make it go like a F1 racer.

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:07 pm

Got it (and I'm planning to shorten up and put a leash on her), I just think there are lots of ways to get to the same end goal and while there's validity to having a program and following it to a T, not every dog needs that (as evidenced by my buddy). With my next dog, I'll have a much better plan and idea of what I need to do and why. There's a learning curve for sure for new owners.

That being said, I'm flexible and obviously willing to try different things. Which is why I got Smartworks. I do appreciate all the advice, even if people don't think I'm taking it. :lol:
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests