UT test training

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Re: UT test training

Postby Stretch » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:48 pm

The goose hunters are missing out on good company. I don’t like hunting without a dog. Have had a hunting dog since I was old enough to hunt by myself and can’t ever see being without one.
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Re: UT test training

Postby ryanr » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:32 pm

Densa44 wrote:Not too soon at all. My son ran his dog in NA and UT on the same weekend. The dog got a 112 in NA and a pz 2 in UT. My advice is to work on the water, I'll say it again, water, water, and more water. The other upland tasks you can teach her in a short time, as others have said.
Duck hunt as much as you can. Depending on where you live there may be places to pick up lots of cripples a day or two after the season opens, this IMO is great experience for a young dog.
Don't handle your dog on a duck search until after the UT test. Practice the duck drag and the long wait when there is lots of gun fire.

If there are no ducks where you live visit me in Alberta, we have just about run out of duck hunters.


Water? Wouldn't you want to work on the retrieve first, ie force breaking before doing the other stuff? After all isn't it the retrieve that comes into play in basically every aspect of the test, more so than any other task really. Once you have the dog forced then the other stuff should start to fall into place more smoothly, no?

And it's summer, not exactly duck hunting season.

I think if I we're the OP, I'd at least take CR's advice and give that article regarding a plan for training for the UT a real close read.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
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Re: UT test training

Postby Fun Dog » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:10 pm

I would start training for it, but not push the date of the test. Your dog has plenty of time to grow up into more serious training. It’s going to take longer without the e-collar. And remember that half the test is retrieving.
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Re: UT test training

Postby Stretch » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:00 pm

He does really good on retrieving bumpers and pheasant. I need to go get a couple ducks and start doing some training with them. Although he came scratching at the door today with one in his mouth still alive.
I haven’t done any FF stuff and think I can skip most of it since he has a pretty good retrieve. Going to try, to just train hold and see how that goes.
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Re: UT test training

Postby centershots » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:55 pm

Stretch there's some great advise above I'll just toss out a caution here... And just FYI, I've trained a number of UT dogs for myself and others, as well as judged and gunned over them. One of the things I've seen that happens... a lot, is that someone does well in the NA and wants to go right to training for UT. The UT is the major league and IMO puts a lot of pressure on pups. Think about the mind set in a UT test. Field work, the dog must comply on lots of stuff, pointing, retrieving, steadiness, etc, you work as a team. Then think about the drag, go do this on your own with no commands other than fetch, dead bird or whatever, then don't look at me because I can't help you, again you're on your own, but bring me back the duck. Now go to heeling and steady at the blind, back to full compliance with you. Heel, stay put while I shoot, stay put while others shoot, stay put while the duck is in the air and splashes in front of you, now go fetch the bird. Now go to the duck search, one command and don't look at me because I can't help you, you're on your own again. This can confuse a pup and the training it takes for the UT can shut a dog down, or take the desire out of it if done too soon. I've seen it many, many times. Now are there pups that can handle it, you bet, but they are the rare and not the norm. I just UTed my pup at 1 year 11 months and I would have waited a bit longer if it wasn't for NAVHDA judging criteria. He got a Prize II, 197 (Three in duck search, or he would have had a prize I.) But I was very careful and backed way off on training a few times on the road to the test. And I hunt my dogs 3-5 times a week during the season, so they have lots of game time under their belly. (I actually think time afield can be more important than age.) I only toss this out because it sounds like you have an awesome pup and yep, maybe it could take the pressure and training, but maybe not... is it worth the risk? Or would it be better to let the pup enjoy hunting, mature a bit and spend quality time afield with you first... and then consider training for the UT? And I'll add something here, lots of dogs that have "pretty good retrieves" stop retrieving well when the pressure of UT training is applied. It's their way of telling you I don't like this pressure so screw you, I'm no longer bringing you the bird. Seen that loads of times... so FF almost always comes into play when training for the UT. JMO and some stuff to think about...
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Re: UT test training

Postby Densa44 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:09 am

This is Heresy! So maybe you shouldn't read it. There are some very important differences between the rookies and the pros (other than the obvious ones) The pro can't pick breed or pedigree, doesn't know what has been done to the dog, and has a fixed amount of time to show results. He is also trying to earn a living, the rookie is doing all this for fun.

Use the least amount of force to get the results that you need. For example many years ago I ran a very good BLF in CKC trails up until Open (that's when my kids were born) and she was never forced fetched. Always picked up the birds, dead and alive and would pick up what I dropped. When I started I'd never heard of FF and when I was told what it was and how it was done, I decided that by then, she was running junior (Derby) and doing well. I wasn't going to do that to her. In those days it was said that the dog "was too soft" and couldn't take the training.

It has been mentioned above by others what happens if you put too much pressure on a young dog, or any dog, they are right. One advantage that you have over the pro is that you know your dog very well. will she willingly retrieve? Always?

Pressure is a 2 edged sword and can cause serious problems as well as fix them.

Of my 2 UT dogs the first one needed the pressure but the second one didn't/doesn't.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: UT test training

Postby ryanr » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:18 pm

Well what's "pretty good on retrieves"? Put it this way Stretch, your dog can retrieve every bird and duck out there but if it puts even one on the ground while doing it you're likely getting marked down. Do it as second time and your retrieve score will be no better than a 2 if I'm not mistaken, at best a 3. You can still earn a Prize with that but not a Prize 1. Lots of dogs want to put a duck on the ground to shake off while leaving the water. Dog will still complete the retrieve but the damage is already done. That's how high the standard for Retrieve is during the UT. So whether you Force Fetch your dog or not, retrieve is of utmost important in the UT.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
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Re: UT test training

Postby Stretch » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:27 pm

ryanr wrote:Well what's "pretty good on retrieves"? Put it this way Stretch, your dog can retrieve every bird and duck out there but if it puts even one on the ground while doing it you're likely getting marked down. Do it as second time and your retrieve score will be no better than a 2 if I'm not mistaken, at best a 3. You can still earn a Prize with that but not a Prize 1. Lots of dogs want to put a duck on the ground to shake off while leaving the water. Dog will still complete the retrieve but the damage is already done. That's how high the standard for Retrieve is during the UT. So whether you Force Fetch your dog or not, retrieve is of utmost important in the UT.



That is why I said, I was going to just try to work on hold. If I think he’s going to need the whole FF program after that I will.
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Re: UT test training

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:23 am

Stretch wrote:
ryanr wrote:Well what's "pretty good on retrieves"? Put it this way Stretch, your dog can retrieve every bird and duck out there but if it puts even one on the ground while doing it you're likely getting marked down. Do it as second time and your retrieve score will be no better than a 2 if I'm not mistaken, at best a 3. You can still earn a Prize with that but not a Prize 1. Lots of dogs want to put a duck on the ground to shake off while leaving the water. Dog will still complete the retrieve but the damage is already done. That's how high the standard for Retrieve is during the UT. So whether you Force Fetch your dog or not, retrieve is of utmost important in the UT.



That is why I said, I was going to just try to work on hold. If I think he’s going to need the whole FF program after that I will.[/quote/]

I dont have near the experience as George, but I know he is giving you sound advice. We share friends and mentors. I just FF my dog last year, and my piece of advice is dont half ass it. Either committ to do it or dont. Set aside two months to do it right. It opens up a whole new world of obedience if done right. I am currently training for the UT and I cannot imagine doing it without FF. You have to get to that point where the dog says screw you, and then because of pressure the dog complies. Once that moment happens you will have a different dog and a different relatinship with your dog.
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Re: UT test training

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:38 am

I have FF'd a few of my own dogs with good results. Used a hybrid method on my current dog and it went well.

I know an amateur trainer who started with a background in OB training. She trains her GSPs using PR and no ecollar and no FF. She put a UT Prize 1 204 on her one year dog last summer. The dog has some FT titles and points in more advanced FTs as well so a high drive dog which has excellent rapport with its handler/trainer/owner. That dog's sire is owned by the same woman and has UT, VC, HRC, MH, OB, FT and Conformation titles and it also was trained by her with all PR techniques. She is currently working with an 8 month pup out of the same sire that looks to be doing excellent so far.
She hunts the stud dog on Lake Erie on waterfowl in some brutal conditions so not just a test dog.

Not at all posting to advise against a FF program if that is the handler's choice, I just see techniques that I would term "Trained Retrieve" having a good deal of success in more and more corners of the dog training world. I think taking in as much information and understanding as much possible and developing a plan to train and develop the dog is the key.
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Re: UT test training

Postby Fun Dog » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:58 pm

Meridiandave wrote: You have to get to that point where the dog says screw you, and then because of pressure the dog complies. Once that moment happens you will have a different dog and a different relatinship with your dog.


That is exactly right. And when the dog stares you down and says no, jump for joy Because now you can truly win. And in the end both of you win. I call it the Sad, Mad, and glad stages.
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