Blind Retrieve Training

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:00 am

Willie T wrote:GH, off topic here but in my eyes, when I think of the greatest retrievers of all time, Honcho was the top dog. Especially if you factor in the offspring he threw.



Back in the day, that was debated a lot. People said since Raider sire Honcho, that really the credit went to Raider. I am not of that opinion. My favorite dog's i ever owned or trained were Honcho dog's. Tractable, smart, naturally talented, drive beyond description. Raider dog's, the ones I trained and that was quite a few, were extremely stubborn and not the brightest lights in the sky. My vote goes to Honcho but certainly a lot of things have changed since those days.

I heard once that they still have some frozen semen from Honcho. Anyone know if that's true?
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:12 pm

AG,
I think you are doing very well.Keep up the good work. You are going to have guys ASK you to bring your dog hunting!

This has been a very good thread. No red flags to comment on.

I dont use the buckets or artificial stuff . I use an approach similar to GH. I walk the dog out. Establish the pile by tossing the buyers on the ground then heel the dog back, line and send. As the dog goes to the pile I back up. Take the bumper, line and resend, back up some more.

I think this approach helps establish the concept of Identifying the desired location and line by how the dog sees the horizon of other natural objects and learn to go where you are looking.

We hunt a lot of big open grass fields with no real identifying factors.

Im curious about what Wille, crackered, and GH would say about cover? I tend to keep them in shorter cover until we get a lot of the problem concepts out of the way.

Lastly, I think to get the dog through the trees you need to get back on dry land and work on pushing through factors obstacles. Doesn't have to be long runs. Crossing a creek,ditch, row of brush, all theses things can cause an issue. Get the concept solved on land.

Going to go work on swim by.

Good luck, you are doing well!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby crackerd » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:40 am

Kiger2 wrote:Im curious about what (you) would say about cover? I tend to keep them in shorter cover until we get a lot of the problem concepts out of the way.


Wholly agree. Lots of reasons, but among them are: Low cover gives them less excuse for putting their nose down to start hunting when sent on a blind, and less excuse for not coming to a dead stop on the whistle command.

On the other hand, one those "problem concepts (are) out of the way," I want a dog seeking every bit of cover it can get into on a blind - even if it's seemingly to your detriment as a handler. As yesterday on a double-blind (land & water) during training. I ran the water blind first, then sent the dog over land where the blind was down the edge of a wheat field. Dog got into wheat as trained (wheat grown as a cover crop, not for Wonder Bread) and I handled her with a single cast at a different angle to the blind. A little TMI for a versatile forum, but that's exactly the kind of counter-indicative blind a FT judge would throw at you, especially if it were a double-blind which happens sometimes in trials. A FT retriever gets wet (goes into the water) and training indicates to the dog that it should be getting wet again...and again, rather than taking its blind-running game to dry land. But again, TMI - I totally agree with what Kiger's posted above.

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:44 pm

No argument from me about low cover vs taller cover. A bird dog wants to search when it gets into cover, land or water. We had enough success in low cover on land that I thought it was productive to work some cover on land. That is what we did for the past 5 days. I removed the bucket targets but continued to work the same area so it would be easier. The right over on the setup is the toughest one as there is a low spot dip with taller cover to cross. The cover overall is pretty thick and 3-4 feet tall. Have only been working 6 retrieves each morning. Each day has had one error, which I was able to correct with handling, usually the error was on the right over.

This morning was meant to be mostly a mental break working some upland cover, but I decided to try a water blind on a pond with alot of cover around the edges both in the water and the bank. Did not go very well. He smelled something that was compelling him to go to his right. To my eye he understood where I was signaling him to go and started there several times, he just seemed to smell something he was compelled to check out on the right bank and was unwilling to let me override it. Interested in what your experts think. Poor job filming with the iphone but good enough to see what happened for the most part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SFIWSnRj_U
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1898
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:48 pm

Casting in water is hard because the dog has momentum for one direction and that resists changing directions. You have to let him stop and look back before giving the cast. In other words you are tooting and casting almost simultaneously. You might have gotten a better cast if you'd have given a whistle to come in a few feet and then give the change of direction cast. He did take a really nice over to the left as he was getting close to the right hand shore which was impressive (most inexperienced dogs would prefer to be on land it can be hard to get them to head out to big water).

You've got a real nice dog with lots of potential!
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Willie T » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:22 pm

Nice AG. You guys are well on the way. Not sure how far to open this can of worms so I'll just talk about it some. On blinds dogs tend to drift with terrain and wind. Suction such as a dead bird(poison bird) that may be visable(when the object is a cripple in the cats), or simply favoring the path of least resistance, an animal or a smell etc. will all pull the dog off line. There are various ways to cope with these influences. The first is factoring it into the geometry of the initial cast. Second is to square the dog up to you as Bruce suggested on subsequent casts. It sets the dog up for better results if back is a consistent 180 degrees from where it is facing. Another is to teach the dog to spin off the shoulder that corresponds to the hand you give the back with. In other words, a left handed back, the dog would spin to the left and go back 180 degrees. A right handed back, it would spin to the right and go back 180 degrees. On the surface they both send to the same place. It gives the handler the ability to spin the dog into the wind or terrain or spin it away from trouble. Quite effective at times. I don't sense that you are interested in literal casting and following it up with swim by, but a slight angle back, slightly away from what ever was pulling him may have been effective too. If you keep putting in the work together, the rapport you develop will only get stronger.
Nice Work-
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:41 pm

Thank you Both.

Willie T, yes the wind was pulling him into that large cover on the right bank. You can easily see him getting scent and pulling his head up and going to the right bank. If sent into the wind things go much easier but we must try these to move forward. Water with low cover banks would be much easier and I need to go find some. Looked around the internet today and there is a Retriever Club with training grounds a couple of hours north. Looking into it.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1898
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:43 pm

Relative to the retrieving drill thread - Keeping it fun and stretching things out in cover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbjCPY3ySOM
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1898
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:19 am

Like every one before, I have taught my current dog to hunt dead using both the "Dead" voice command and hand motion. But the training and application of it have been close around me when we are working to recover a downed bird the dog had no mark on, and sometimes neither did I.

Working the water and land blinds at longer distances there are instances where the dog just misses the bird and I really need a way to que him that he is close to the bird and needs to "Hunt Dead".

I expect I can easily overlay a new whistle tone to my existing "Hunt Dead" command but I am unsure as to the best way to then get the dog to do that at a distance vs coming back in close to me where 2 seasons worth of "Hunt Dead" while hunting has mostly occurred when looking for downed birds while upland hunting.

I would appreciate hearing what steps/progression you use for training the "Hunt Dead" at a distance after handling a dog on a blind retrieve and stopping him when he is very close the bird but upwind or otherwise not getting scent. I know several of you do it, but I am unclear as to the progression you used to get to the final product. The challenge I predict is how to get him to hunt dead where he is when I stop him and give the signal vs coming back to me to hunt dead (which he has been trained and habituated to do up til now).
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1898
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:07 pm

Okay, so you've handled to the general area of the fall and you've given a "sit" command and you want the dog to start hunting from that point but a "hunt dead" command just brings him closer to you?

In most hunting situations the dog will only go so far on any given cast anyway and will either pop or start hunting on it's own. So in your situation you can give a cast and if he "pops" you can ignore it and he should start hunting. Another whistle command doesn't seem like a good answer given the limited tones you can do with a regular dog whistle.

A better answer might be to teach the dog to take a vocal "hunt dead" command from wherever he is. Start by shooting off a high voltage red plastic Retrieve-r-trainer so that it's going out there 75 yards and send first as a mark. Then put the dog where he can't see the dummy go out and shoot off another (same distance) and send on a "hunt dead." Done repeatedly in different directions (minus the mark) should greatly expand the area hunted. You can put the dog on a remote sit and do the same thing to simulate a hunt from afar. You can give a cast from that remote spot towards where the dummy is ( good to salt an area with a few dummies if you're worried about the dog getting discouraged). Once the dog has learned that a gun going off means there's a dead bird you will get very enthusiastic hunts. I often do it at the end of a more didactic session as a treat.
Last edited by Bruce Schwartz on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:45 pm

Oh left to his own devices he will search aplenty. But when it is upwind and or headed in the wrong direction after just narrowly missing the bird on an otherwise well executed handled blind, it makes me wish for a trained and understood que to Hunt Dead around where I just stopped the dog, vs letting him search further and further away.

To your point about ignoring, the general case is he is fine with 3 or 4 handles but starts ignoring me when I try to handle him over a small area, particularly back into a nearby area he just went through when he unknowingly missed the bird. Which made me think I would be better off to stop him the moment he misses the bird and is heading hopelessly in the upwind direction of the bird he missed, and give him a que to Hunt Dead. One swing downwind with his nose and mind in Hunt Dead mode would have solved these situations when they have occurred was my notion Bruce, And using a whistle que to carry over longer distances and wind was my other thought.

I could be wrong or naive about what problems I may create pursuing this. Watching videos it appeared to me Handlers had a whistle command which signaled and released the dog to Hunt Dead close around where it was when the command was given. Perhaps the trick is always use it when the dog is down wind of the bird?
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1898
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:02 pm

AG: I was editing my response and didn't get it done before you re-posted. So maybe what I edited will be a better thought out response. I don't know about a hunt dead whistle per se as I just yell it out and it seems to work OK. If you get a shepherd's whistle there is no end to variations you can make.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby crackerd » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:57 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:AG: I was editing my response and didn't get it done before you re-posted. So maybe what I edited will be a better thought out response. I don't know about a hunt dead whistle per se as I just yell it out and it seems to work OK. If you get a shepherd's whistle there is no end to variations you can make.


In so stating, I believe Bruce (and Samuel Beckett) are "Waiting for da' Blow" Or at least da' click https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07at1bU89Q

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:45 pm

We are making progress. Nothing fancy, but understanding and willingness to take direction are both coming up.

Yesterday morning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rv6UXNBT3E

This Morning. Tried the whistle que as he passed the bird on his left with the wind at his back. Worked that time at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUKiSfhFKMY
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1898
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:14 pm



Exactly!


AverageGuy wrote:We are making progress.


Strong work there Kent!
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests