Blind Retrieve Training

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:12 am

Thank you to all for the excellent input. Nice when the forums are functioning productively.

MG, you bringing up the possible pitfall a dog comes to rely on the visuals has been a concern on my mind. In low cover on land and in our water blinds I have not used them for quite awhile now, but went back to them this week when I decided to back up and review some things using longer distance setups on land.

For the moment, in cover that tall, I need them to build his confidence, reduce/avoid searching leading to more handles than I think is productive for the dog at this juncture.

Based on this mornings work I think we will have some crisp work on that setup in the near term. Assuming that comes to fruition; Are there any techniques that are helpful when I am ready to try the same setup without the buckets? One thought I have is still use the buckets but set them on the ground vs up on the stakes as an interim step. Less visible but still an aid when the dog gets closer at least. Past that, does a guy remove the target altogether, run it the same way as before and see how it goes?
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:31 am

What happens to most of us is that when we get fixated on a goal we're in such a rush to get there we overlook errors in the small required steps along the way (or we let the little faults slide until the whole chain fails). If your dog takes a good line but can't tread water and isn't squarely looking at you for a cast (or won't take a reliable "over" or "back" cast) then you'll be struggling at any distance. That's why you need to be continually reinforcing the small steps and doing them on land and water close in. Your "whoa" whistle might be OK but if the stopped dog is looking over his shoulder at you then you'll play hell getting the dog to take an opposite "over" and, as MG said, he'll just "dig back" in the direction he's already facing.

To get the dog to squarely look at you in the water tie a rope on him and jerk it or pull him around as you whistle a stop (or your "whoa" command) and, when he turns towards you, throw a bumper to one side or the other for him. Eventually Spud will figure out that if he hears a whistle and looks squarely at you then there'll be a dummy thrown. Same for "back". This can get you from having to do a full scale swim-by. (Some dogs will freak out when you use a rope on them so introduce it slowly). Of course most dogs won't need the rope, just knowing that there'll be a dummy thrown will get their compliance. Later, when the dog is sent and you've got a dummy already out there that the dog can see as you give the "over" or "back" command you can get away from his always expecting a "throw". Dogs are right or left handed and so they'll always turn the same way. When this is reliable close in you can start your sight blinds or marks, or whatever to introduce distance on your sends.

As far as using buckets they are only useful in early stages of getting the dog to take a line. If you walk the dog out and drop a dummy and then walk back to the send place the dog will remember and you'll not need the buckets. Again, the buckets are only useful to develop the concept that there'll be a dummy out there if he goes far enough. Then you can adjust with your handling. Or, you could just do what I do and blow a turn right or turn left whistle and the dog will not have to stop and look for directions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B433iME85F4
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Willie T » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:35 pm

AG, there are often different approaches to get to the same place. Here is the method I use to get the dog to square up to me when teaching handling. OB foundation needs to be solid and prompt before commencing. One whistle blast is a whistle "sit". Three quick whistle blasts are "here". Taught on land the transition to water is pretty seamless. If I need to re-cast I will give a whistle "sit". The dog should throw on the brakes and sit. The moment he does I follow it up with a recall. The dog will stand an spin to me to boil toward me. As soon as the spin is complete, I give a whistle sit. I now have him squared up and facing me. I teach this in the baseball drill as you described with piles at first, second and third. The dog is sent from heel toward second base. About every third go I will stop him at the pitchers mound. It is important that he is allowed to continue to second more often than he is stopped so he does not start to anticipate the whistle and pop. If you are consistent he will start to anticipate and square up on his own. Once I am convinced he has the concept, we take it to blinds. If he does not square up. Whistle in and a quick whistle stop. It is not overnight but it will sharpen up nicely.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:41 am

AverageGuy wrote:Thank you to all for the excellent input. Nice when the forums are functioning productively.

MG, you bringing up the possible pitfall a dog comes to rely on the visuals has been a concern on my mind. In low cover on land and in our water blinds I have not used them for quite awhile now, but went back to them this week when I decided to back up and review some things using longer distance setups on land.

For the moment, in cover that tall, I need them to build his confidence, reduce/avoid searching leading to more handles than I think is productive for the dog at this juncture.

Based on this mornings work I think we will have some crisp work on that setup in the near term. Assuming that comes to fruition; Are there any techniques that are helpful when I am ready to try the same setup without the buckets? One thought I have is still use the buckets but set them on the ground vs up on the stakes as an interim step. Less visible but still an aid when the dog gets closer at least. Past that, does a guy remove the target altogether, run it the same way as before and see how it goes?


THE most effective method to teach ANY blind is to walk the dog out on the line you want him to take, sit him, walk back, then call him BACK to you. You are teaching the line with no pressure in reverse.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:47 am

This is an Excellent Advisory Board. We worked the setup in the photo again this morning and it was another good session.

GH, to your last post, I walked Spud at heel with me to each bucket and tossed two bumpers at each before we ran the 6 retrieves in the session which gave him some understanding of the line, but I did not walk out and back each time. I will use that approach the next time. Sounds like a great technique when introducing a new training area or setup to make it easier on the dog at this stage.

Densa, I tossed the bumpers a few yards off of each bucket harkening to a post you made in the Duck Search thread.

MG, Spud took the sends and ran lines in a way that indicated he was not even looking at the buckets in that heavy cover until they pulled him in when he arrived in the area. I think we benefit from that visual aid for the moment, but want to wean off of them. The success we have had working this setup 3 times over 3 days suggest to me we can probably run the same setup without the buckets sometime soon.

Wille T/Bruce, One of the 6 retrieves we worked started with a mistake. Spud went Back instead of the right Over signal I had given him. I stopped him with the Whoa whistle, then called him back towards me and stopped him again. Now he was squared up facing me with eyes on me. Then I gave him the right over and he completed the retrieve. I was more conscious to do a better job of taking whatever time it took until Spud gave me a good eye lock before I gave the signal/send.

It has been on my mind for some time as to whether I should buy a different whistle and take the time to teach Spud to sit on it. I was trying to get where I want to be using the Whoa whistle and a standing Whoa he is already well versed in. I have done it with a couple of dogs before with acceptable results for the standards I am working towards.

The approach does present present problems in Spud not being squared up facing me a good deal of the time when he stops on the Whoa. And the other issue that crops up is some confusion when I have to use multiple handles and Spud becomes unsure as to whether having been Whoa'd several times, is he now suppose to move or stay where he is, (standing still being inline with how Whoa was originally trained). I trained him to release at a distance (without me having to walk back to him) to retrieve using a hand signal and verbal command when training WSF for the UT so am hoping with practice he can become 100% confident but we are not at 100% now.

When this problem crops up, I walk towards where I am sending him and give the verbal command and hand signal again. I get him restarted but there are occasions of confusion and stickiness. Backing up and using a newly trained different whistle que specific to Sit, instead of the standing Whoa might be worth it. Would be for sure if running any HRC games were my objective. I am pondering the subject for the moment but continuing to train on meanwhile. If we can progress using Whoa vs Sit I lean towards doing so but will let progress vs problems determine it.

We are making progress - fewer mistakes, increased willingness/understanding to accept handling to work through the mistakes, longer distances working in taller heavier natural cover, was in the 60s overcast/drizzling this morning and Spud was eager to work and running hard both ways.

Thanks for the help gentlemen.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:59 am

You may be overthinking and complicating that problem. I don't worry about it. Blow the whistle and if he absolutely freezes, give him a simple come in and whistle again. That way he is facing you directly. It may be worth it to use two different whistles but I seriously doubt it. You're not striving for total perfection, just a very huntable dog. It is not the world of field trialing.

Of course the simpler option is simply NOT to use the whistle for Whoa. Yell whoa and use the whistle for sit only.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:52 am

[quote="GONEHUNTIN'"][/quote]
THE most effective method to teach ANY blind is to walk the dog out on the line you want him to take, sit him, walk back, then call him BACK to you. You are teaching the line with no pressure in reverse.

excellent point! I keep forgetting to do that. Also you can leave your dog on a sit and then walk out and toss a dummy up that dog sees and then go back and send the dog.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Judy Aycock was telling me once that after she retired NFC San Joaquin Honcho, she used to run a blind with him with a bird or bumper in his mouth, get him to the spot she wanted, have him then drop it, call him back, then send the next dog on a cold blind. She was and is a great trainer and he an incredible dog. NFC at 2 1/2.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:46 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:You may be overthinking and complicating that problem. I don't worry about it. Blow the whistle and if he absolutely freezes, give him a simple come in and whistle again. That way he is facing you directly. It may be worth it to use two different whistles but I seriously doubt it. You're not striving for total perfection, just a very huntable dog. It is not the world of field trialing.

Of course the simpler option is simply NOT to use the whistle for Whoa. Yell whoa and use the whistle for sit only.


Hey, I like That answer!
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby crackerd » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:29 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Judy Aycock was telling me once that after she retired NFC San Joaquin Honcho, she used to run a blind with him with a bird or bumper in his mouth, get him to the spot she wanted, have him then drop it, call him back, then send the next dog on a cold blind. She was and is a great trainer and he an incredible dog. NFC at 2 1/2.


GH, what was the remote drop command for Honcho - whistle, verbal or body language?

Good stuff.

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 703
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:32 pm

crackerd wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Judy Aycock was telling me once that after she retired NFC San Joaquin Honcho, she used to run a blind with him with a bird or bumper in his mouth, get him to the spot she wanted, have him then drop it, call him back, then send the next dog on a cold blind. She was and is a great trainer and he an incredible dog. NFC at 2 1/2.


GH, what was the remote drop command for Honcho - whistle, verbal or body language?

Good stuff.

MG


She never said. I assumed it may have been visual, but I honestly don't know. She said he absolutely loved doing it.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Willie T » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:41 pm

GH, off topic here but in my eyes, when I think of the greatest retrievers of all time, Honcho was the top dog. Especially if you factor in the offspring he threw.

AG, I am of the opinion you can get where you need to be using whoa. If you square Spud up and let him settle a moment to look for the cast, there may be a few growing pains, but if you put in the work, Spud will most likely learn to differentiate between when he is hunting and when you are giving him a line and handling on a blind retrieve, and respond accordingly. For what it's worth, with Cricket, I go with GH's simpler method. Whoa is not a command I often use while hunting. My command is either voice or more often, show him the palm of my hand.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:14 am

I want to work on Marked Retrieves to build better skills for Spud at longer distances in Cover and balance it with other work. So I went to youtube and ended up watching several of Bill Hillman's videos just now. I have several of his DVDs. 3ds and Bruce have recommended him quite a bit in the past.

I have much to learn but found this very interesting. I have been walking Spud at Heel back to the Pitchers Mound. This approach of "Kennel" to get the dog there on its own looks so much better than that. And it has the elements of getting the dog to focus on the Handler which has come up in this thread. Thought I would share it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7QRNE7CFvg
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:05 pm

Hillman understands extremely well how to train your dog. He talks about getting the dog "engaged" before work and talks about rewarding the dog for doing well after each task. He emphasizes many reps of simple parts and does everything close in, later chaining the parts and adding distance. Here's a "Sitting on the whistle" link that illustrates this pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3aF4xqof_w
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Blind Retrieve Training

Postby booger » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:05 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I want to work on Marked Retrieves to build better skills for Spud at longer distances in Cover and balance it with other work. So I went to youtube and ended up watching several of Bill Hillman's videos just now. I have several of his DVDs. 3ds and Bruce have recommended him quite a bit in the past.

I have much to learn but found this very interesting. I have been walking Spud at Heel back to the Pitchers Mound. This approach of "Kennel" to get the dog there on its own looks so much better than that. And it has the elements of getting the dog to focus on the Handler which has come up in this thread. Thought I would share it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7QRNE7CFvg


I got some advice to do that, and ended up last year starting to do a rug for "place". Just with a clicker. It has gone much better than I had anticipated this year and I've taken it to the field a few times and it works very nicely. It also allows me to whistle and then send right away, which is much more real to the actual hunting situations. The long whistle to me, just means be ready to take a signal. I don't care if my dog sits (although I did train it that way), I don't want to take on the task of teaching her to tread water while she waits for my signal. In a hunting situation I just want to whistle, have the dog look back and send her right away.

One of my problems was my dog coming into me and I struggled with distance away from the dog, the place mat really has helped with that.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests

cron