Blood Tracking

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby JONOV » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:27 pm

hicntry wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:


HiCntry,

My GWPs have all had excellent natural ability for tracking, as well as retrieving on land and water, searching for and pointing upland birds. Without training they have no ques as to which of those tasks they are being asked to perform when I turn them loose. Particularly in a CRP field with quail around as demonstrated in the video. And there is training needed to ignore all the other wild game they encounter while being asked to track the blood trail of a specific wounded animal. And training builds tenacity for the task when the track gets difficult.

To your point, this pup tracked and recovered the first two deer I put him on with no prior training, the first when he was 10 months old on a track with no visible blood that went 250 yards.

Train a dog to mark and retrieve doves, waterfowl off of banks, marsh platforms, ground blinds, pit blinds, layout boats, jon boats, airboats, marshes, rivers, lakes, fields, marked and blind retrieves, upland birds of all kinds in all kinds of terrain steady to WSF, adjusting its search to cover and pointing with style and intensity, AND to track and recover wounded game, and you will have a better appreciation for the need for the training in this area.

As far as the innate ability to track, I observe the best tracking dogs are mostly born with the skill vs trained but they all get better with experience and that is what these drills provide. The drills teach ques for the track command and build focus in the dog for specific task/track until completed.

Hounds, Beagles, Curs, Terriers, Vdogs, I have hunted a great deal with all of them. They all benefit from training and experience. Some are more gifted than others but it is more common than not for young dogs to start a track and not finish it at times. Training and experience is needed to build tracking skills and these drills provide it.


Thanks for the very informative reply AG. It got me to thinking about some of the differences in dogs themselves and, just as importantly, the environmental factors the pups/dogs are raised in. An example would be blood trailing, something I would consider to be natural to a dog. I never trained to trail or track anything, BUT, While I never participated in their training, I did partner the young dogs up with very experienced older dogs that were really good at it. I am sure you have seen a lot of that since hounds and such are run in packs normally.

It is obvious that you have the experience to understand what I said. It is just as obvious that a couple of posters didn't have a clue.

It isn't training them to smell the blood, its training to stick with the track. Some of this is surely genetic, but with some dogs, especially bird dogs, the tendency is to break off the spur into a search.
AverageGuy wrote:
jlw034 wrote:Nice video! Happy dog!

Here in the great state of Minnesota, it is less than legal to track big game, for any reason, with a dog.

Blows my mind, as I would love to track and recover deer with my dog. Seems like less waste would be a good thing???


Yes the laws in this area are frustrating.

MissKiwi, a Mutual Friend of ours with the IA DNR and myself tried to get something going to legalize it in Iowa this past session but it died out. I went a public meeting and gave supportive comments but all others in the room were silent. Non-Residents now wait 4 or more years to draw a NR tag to bowhunt their giant whitetails. If there was ever a state that should be glad to embrace Blood Tracking with dogs it is IA, but it is both disappointing and amazing how ignorant a lot of hunters are on the subject. Running coyotes with hounds is legal 24/7 year round but turning loose a handful highly trained tracking dogs is somehow going to ruin their sport...

I'll neither confirm nor deny that when I lived in MN, I knew people that, after arrowing a deer that didn't fall in sight, took their dog for a walk, starting 20 yards from their stand.

But its as if they think people will instantly start to run deer hounds. Ridiculous, especially since you have a short gun season to begin with. Its like the fear that allowing the sale of lottery tickets or beer at a restaurant will turn the town into Las Vegas.
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby hicntry » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:35 pm

"It isn't training them to smell the blood, its training to stick with the track. Some of this is surely genetic, but with some dogs, especially bird dogs, the tendency is to break off the spur into a search. "

I know that. Obviously, if a dog can track and animal for miles just off of dropped skin cells, they can certainly smell blood. My comment was more to why they don't follow a blood trail freely. As AG explained Vdogs have multiple purposes. A lot of why they need training goes back to environmental issues....

Regarding young dogs leaving the track they are following always having older dogs with a lot of experience eliminated this problem for me. Those that don't have 20 to 30 adult dogs in the yard have to work through that by training.....something I only did once in the beginning. When I went to the nationals in OH, I ran a 20 month old and a 10 month old in the master fur. One of the obstacles they had was to drag an opossum in a cage across the main track and it was left a mere 10 feet from the track. Every dog there was eliminated because they went for the opossum. All except mine. My 10 month old was eliminated for going after the tree judge and had him against a tree when we got there. He was glad to see us. LOL They still gave that dog an award called the Tank award for tanking a good run. I didn't tell them, but, by dragging that opossum across the track, they were actually teaching the dogs to leave the track. By the way, these were not young dogs that left the track, they just had no experience hunting.
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:26 pm

HiCntry,

Spud loves his possums and coons and turkeys. All examples of why I am sure I need to work with him to ignore them when tracking blood. Until I work with him more I am not sure how much perseverance he will have on older winding tracks, and how reliable he can become to ignore all the live game he encounters as he goes. With prior dogs once I got them to understand the mission i.e. find the animal putting down the blood, they were pretty focused and intense on doing so. That is what I am wanting to build here. JONOV mentioned a dog pulling off and going into search mode. That is a real threat with a dog which does a lot of head high searching for birds as it hunts. I have found it to often be a very effective approach for the dog to use as long as they have the brains and willingness to return to where they last smelled blood if their forging ahead search mode did not produce it. The dog I trained just prior to this one was excellent in that way using both nose to the ground and nose to the air looping out ahead to find next blood and it really shortened up the time it took him to find the deer we were looking for. He understood the mission and bought into it in a big way. He was hunting for the animal using everything in his toolkit to find it. Highly similar to a track straddling hound vs one which will drift a track.

We have more work to do for me to know what I have in this dog and what we need to work on, or not.
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:18 pm

AG, Sorry for the late reply. I would think a blood trail loses less scent when it is cooler overnight verses hot day. But by aging overnight you will have less human scent which is what you want.
I layed a track in August with 100 Degree Temp aged for 5 days and my old dog did it when she was less than a year old. Forrest
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:52 pm

"It is obvious that you have the experience to understand what I said. It is just as obvious that a couple of posters didn't have a clue.[/quote]

If people are put off by your posts, you may have a communication problem.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pm

Drahthaar1108 wrote:AG, Sorry for the late reply. I would think a blood trail loses less scent when it is cooler overnight verses hot day. But by aging overnight you will have less human scent which is what you want.
I layed a track in August with 100 Degree Temp aged for 5 days and my old dog did it when she was less than a year old. Forrest


That is some powerful tracking, Forrest! I do not see this dog having the nose or the disposition to work a track that old.
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Willie T » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:06 am

Good stuff AG. I dilute blood in water and freeze into ice cubes. Depending on what kind of arm you have, you can eliminate the possibility of the dog tracking your boot tracks. Makes it easy to get the track deep into cover and not contaminate it.
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:37 am

Willie T wrote:Good stuff AG. I dilute blood in water and freeze into ice cubes. Depending on what kind of arm you have, you can eliminate the possibility of the dog tracking your boot tracks. Makes it easy to get the track deep into cover and not contaminate it.
Willie.


I like that idea! Are you working Cricket free cast or on a leash?
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:40 am

AG, time will tell how cold of a nose Spud has, like you said the hard part is breaking him off un wanted game during the track, takes a lot of tracking & wild goose chases, and you learning to read your dog.
I will continue laying tracks for my pup all summer ,hopefully I can kill a few bow killed pigs for him. but too many real tracks and they don't want to do the artificial track.
Just something I did with my old dog ,I kept a log on tracks she has done, date, moon phase, sent conditions, Temp, bow shot or gun shot. and whether the animal was recovered ,jumped or lost. she does about 30 blood trails a year. I get quite a lot of calls to track, don't do them all, over the last 38 years my DD'S have earned quite a reputation . Forrest
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Willie T » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:03 am

AverageGuy wrote:
Willie T wrote:Good stuff AG. I dilute blood in water and freeze into ice cubes. Depending on what kind of arm you have, you can eliminate the possibility of the dog tracking your boot tracks. Makes it easy to get the track deep into cover and not contaminate it.
Willie.


I like that idea! Are you working Cricket free cast or on a leash?


Free cast. Texas is a dog friendly in regard to tracking dogs
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:46 am

WILLIE t, When you let your dog track off the lease , how do you no when they find the game ?
AG, I read where you are having trouble in IOWA getting blood trailing with a dog legalized , John Jenny in NY might be able to help, HE also has a good book on training blood tracking dogs, I think he is in charge of United blood trailers. Forrest
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:09 am

Yes, I have John's book. It is a good one which I recommend to others. The process in IA is difficult as it must start and route through the Legislature vs DNR. And too many deer hunters oppose it due to a lack of knowledge and erroneously equating it with trespassing and dogs chasing live deer. Public Demos of what a tracking dog can do for them is what is needed to build a ground swell of support. A good video would go a long ways and reach alot of people...
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:24 am

AG< yes that sound like an excellent idea, hope it comes together for all of you. if the general public would just open there minds and listen . Forrest
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Willie T » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:58 pm

Drahthaar1108 wrote:WILLIE t, When you let your dog track off the lease , how do you no when they find the game ?
AG, I read where you are having trouble in IOWA getting blood trailing with a dog legalized , John Jenny in NY might be able to help, HE also has a good book on training blood tracking dogs, I think he is in charge of United blood trailers. Forrest


I use a gps collar. He is trained to lay down when he finds what he is tracking, unless it is alive when he gets there. Then all heck breaks loose. The collar shows him to be on point or treed. I can see when and where he stops on the hand held and it gives me a distance and bearing to him. While training it is easy enough to put a way point at the end of the track I lay and I can see when he is there.
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Re: Blood Tracking

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:00 am

willie t, good job on the training, that would save a lot of down on my knees crawling going threw thickets, only time I take my dog off the tracking lead is when we jump the animal we are tracking or she stops and points it, like you say its on then, Thanks . Forrest
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