Duck search questions

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Duck search questions

Postby booger » Wed May 30, 2018 1:50 pm

orhunter wrote:If it were me, I'd want the dog to catch the bird about half the time so it thinks it can every time. Can slowly wean the dog from catching depending on the results you're getting. The one thing I'd be careful of is allowing the dog to chase birds it can see from where it is sent for the search. These should all be blind retrieves/searches with the dog operating independently, out of sight of the handler. It isn't searching if the dog sees the duck.


I believe the thought process behind the dog finding a duck every time is that when you send the dog, he knows there's a duck to be found. If he only finds a duck half the time, he might not believe you that a duck is out there. That would almost be like sending a dog on a blind retrieve without a bumper.

And letting a dog see the duck isn't the worst thing in the world (we've done it both ways), if thrown into the weeds the duck can still move around a bit and typically the dog still needs to search. Depends on how you hobble it and how far along the dog is, early on you might want to make it clear there's a duck out there. We've had dogs see the bird get thrown/planted and not find the duck. Hell my dog who has done at least 20 duck searches did that last time out, which is why it is nice to have a dead one at the ready and someone else to paddle out to help the dog expand.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Duck search questions

Postby Hunters Edge » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:45 pm

ForestDump wrote:How do you all hobble your live ducks when training for the search? I finally introduced a live duck Friday and he out swam the dog for a solid 9 minutes all around the pond. Since I'm assuming the test is not like this I would like to set up as close to the testing scenario as possible.

Also how often can you resend a dog before a failing score? If I remember correctly a failing score in DS results in no prize regardless of the rest of the test.


I think it may depend on each state, in what is legal or allowed. Your local NAVHDA chapter would be a wealth of information. Handler clinics are available but many in the chapter have already attended and will most likely be able to answer your questions, but also share hands on experience.

In our state we have a quiet time which limits even where we train during nesting season. Most likely your state may have similar laws.
Dogs have shown us how short life is. Enjoy every day and God bless you
User avatar
Hunters Edge
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: Northern, Michigan

Re: Duck search questions

Postby ForestDump » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:38 pm

Hunters Edge wrote:
ForestDump wrote:How do you all hobble your live ducks when training for the search? I finally introduced a live duck Friday and he out swam the dog for a solid 9 minutes all around the pond. Since I'm assuming the test is not like this I would like to set up as close to the testing scenario as possible.

Also how often can you resend a dog before a failing score? If I remember correctly a failing score in DS results in no prize regardless of the rest of the test.


I think it may depend on each state, in what is legal or allowed. Your local NAVHDA chapter would be a wealth of information. Handler clinics are available but many in the chapter have already attended and will most likely be able to answer your questions, but also share hands on experience.

In our state we have a quiet time which limits even where we train during nesting season. Most likely your state may have similar laws.


Oregon doesn’t have a quiet season for dog training anymore. It’s just not good to actively interfere with nests.
User avatar
ForestDump
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Duck search questions

Postby orhunter » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:25 am

FD:

Wasn’t aware of that. Guess they figure there are no birds left in the state worth saving or we’re all a bunch of metro sexuals. ODFW hasn’t got anything right, hunting or fishing, in many years. One more thing added to the long list of screwups.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7623
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Duck search questions

Postby Hunters Edge » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:43 pm

ForestDump wrote:
Hunters Edge wrote:
ForestDump wrote:How do you all hobble your live ducks when training for the search? I finally introduced a live duck Friday and he out swam the dog for a solid 9 minutes all around the pond. Since I'm assuming the test is not like this I would like to set up as close to the testing scenario as possible.

Also how often can you resend a dog before a failing score? If I remember correctly a failing score in DS results in no prize regardless of the rest of the test.


I think it may depend on each state, in what is legal or allowed. Your local NAVHDA chapter would be a wealth of information. Handler clinics are available but many in the chapter have already attended and will most likely be able to answer your questions, but also share hands on experience.

In our state we have a quiet time which limits even where we train during nesting season. Most likely your state may have similar laws.


Oregon doesn’t have a quiet season for dog training anymore. It’s just not good to actively interfere with nests.


Actually there may be a federal law for nests and eggs/chicks in nest. (treaty)

What about migratory birds? I would be concerned if any law state or federal concerning running dog on migratory bird/birds in water. Also anything in the law about pulling feathers or taping of wings? If there is none, I guess any of the posts you could use.

Only it still does not help you in what judges are wanting and how to train for it. It is called water search for a reason. I think the local chapter would hopefully have a wealth of knowledge you could use. Usually you can visit one or two times and see if you want to join, but more importantly is if you and your dog can benefit from there experiences whether they were pass or fails.
Dogs have shown us how short life is. Enjoy every day and God bless you
User avatar
Hunters Edge
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: Northern, Michigan

Re: Duck search questions

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Lots of laws in the two states I trained Duck Search in.

Mo prohibits using live ducks on WMAs, but dead ducks are ok. To have and use live ducks on private waters I am required to have a State issued permit, renewed annually. My qtrs are inspected annually as are my receipts to prove where I acquired the ducks. I must have a copy of my permit and my receipts on me at all times I am using the ducks.

In IA there is a quiet period where dogs cannot be trained on WMAs land or water. When live ducks are used they must be banded with bands I buy from the DNR.

In either state the ducks have a toe clipped off to prove they are not wild, and they must be recovered at the end of training.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1872
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Duck search questions

Postby ForestDump » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:25 pm

Hunters Edge wrote:
ForestDump wrote:
Oregon doesn’t have a quiet season for dog training anymore. It’s just not good to actively interfere with nests.


Actually there may be a federal law for nests and eggs/chicks in nest. (treaty)

What about migratory birds? I would be concerned if any law state or federal concerning running dog on migratory bird/birds in water. Also anything in the law about pulling feathers or taping of wings? If there is none, I guess any of the posts you could use.

Only it still does not help you in what judges are wanting and how to train for it. It is called water search for a reason. I think the local chapter would hopefully have a wealth of knowledge you could use. Usually you can visit one or two times and see if you want to join, but more importantly is if you and your dog can benefit from there experiences whether they were pass or fails.


Right. You can’t molest or harrass the nests but they lifted the quiet season ban so you can run dogs year around. I just moved this way 2 years ago but I believe the ban was recently lifted.

As far as waterfowl I use a set of training ponds owned by odfw for dog training that don’t get any waterfowl activity. I have water close to my home but it’s regularly used by ducks and geese for resting/nesting id never send a dog into it.

Anyway the chapter I’m testing with just posted a upt/ut duck search training day in two weeks so I’ll be able to get my dog evaluated by NAVHDA guys and see how far I need to go by August. Only downside is they have a duck purchase minimum. I’m sick of buying ducks.
User avatar
ForestDump
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Duck search questions

Postby Hunters Edge » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:49 pm

I would hope you have a bird pen. If not a small one above ground is not that expensive. Or even better if you have a friend that will keep ducks for you, for the opportunity to use one now and then.

The plus side is the use of them over and over. You could if neither is an option is after training day, put them in the freezer, to be used another day.

Just make sure duck is dry, then roll them in newspaper. Use a blower to get most off then two fans on either side, keeps bugs off and finish drying them.

Best of luck on training day, be a sponge and soak up every knowledge available.

PS do not be shy ask questions, good for you and others to afraid to ask. It's a learning experience for handlers and hopefully the dog as well
Dogs have shown us how short life is. Enjoy every day and God bless you
User avatar
Hunters Edge
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: Northern, Michigan

Re: Duck search questions

Postby ForestDump » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:21 pm

Hunters Edge wrote:I would hope you have a bird pen. If not a small one above ground is not that expensive. Or even better if you have a friend that will keep ducks for you, for the opportunity to use one now and then.

The plus side is the use of them over and over. You could if neither is an option is after training day, put them in the freezer, to be used another day.

Just make sure duck is dry, then roll them in newspaper. Use a blower to get most off then two fans on either side, keeps bugs off and finish drying them.

Best of luck on training day, be a sponge and soak up every knowledge available.

PS do not be shy ask questions, good for you and others to afraid to ask. It's a learning experience for handlers and hopefully the dog as well


Currently feeding 3 ducks in a smallish pen. Got a large flight pen with chuckar and a pigeon loft. Takes birds to make bird dogs. The ducks are fine my biggest issue with them is they make a huge mess and they stink. I wish I had someone close by to keep them instead that’d be amazing. I may end up just shooting them by the end of the week training with dead ducks honestly. I only have them to train for this one portion of this one test after that they’re gone.
User avatar
ForestDump
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Duck search questions

Postby Hunters Edge » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:02 pm

They do make a stink/stench. I would throw them in your flight pen, if it would keep the stench away from the home front.

PS good luck on test day
Dogs have shown us how short life is. Enjoy every day and God bless you
User avatar
Hunters Edge
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: Northern, Michigan

Re: Duck search questions

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:18 am

FD, as you know well the constant in training dogs is to read the dog for feedback on how it is going. I have had excellent success training Duck Search on GWPs using mostly dead ducks and some live ones mixed in as needed. With my current pup I used the lived ducks to give him a reason to crawl over large floating logs at one specific site, but otherwise trained on 5 other duck search waters using dead ducks with the dog doing excellent high drive expanding searches. It is very possible that using multiple dead ducks in your search water will be sufficient to incite your dog to do good searches. I had a pen of live ducks setup last summer and yes they are a mess, even more so compared to my freezer full of dead ones.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1872
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Duck search questions

Postby ryanr » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:14 am

Hunters Edge wrote:
ForestDump wrote:
ForestDump wrote:How do you all hobble your live ducks when training for the search? I finally introduced a live duck Friday and he out swam the dog for a solid 9 minutes all around the pond. Since I'm assuming the test is not like this I would like to set up as close to the testing scenario as possible.

Also how often can you resend a dog before a failing score? If I remember correctly a failing score in DS results in no prize regardless of the rest of the test.


I think it may depend on each state, in what is legal or allowed. Your local NAVHDA chapter would be a wealth of information. Handler clinics are available but many in the chapter have already attended and will most likely be able to answer your questions, but also share hands on experience.

In our state we have a quiet time which limits even where we train during nesting season. Most likely your state may have similar laws.



Actually there may be a federal law for nests and eggs/chicks in nest. (treaty)

What about migratory birds? I would be concerned if any law state or federal concerning running dog on migratory bird/birds in water. Also anything in the law about pulling feathers or taping of wings? If there is none, I guess any of the posts you could use.

Only it still does not help you in what judges are wanting and how to train for it. It is called water search for a reason. I think the local chapter would hopefully have a wealth of knowledge you could use. Usually you can visit one or two times and see if you want to join, but more importantly is if you and your dog can benefit from there experiences whether they were pass or fails.


Did I miss something, what's all the hubbub? Where'd the question arise from? As far as using ducks for training, you can't use wild ducks (I imagine every state has that law as well as the Feds) so I'm not sure of the issue? In PA, for organized chapter training we get a permit from the Game Commission and also bird leg bands (we buy them from the Game Commision and sell them to each handler, 10 for $1) which must be placed on each duck we bought or raised for training. The band has to remain on the duck while in use for training, live or dead. We also keep our receipt on hand. When we train on our own, since we already have the bands we just use them but I believe individuals also keep a purchase receipt of what they have.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Previous

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests