PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby ryanr » Thu May 03, 2018 8:43 am

SMAbby wrote:I still want to know about the dog attacking and killing birds. May be bigger problems ahead.


He never said it killed or even caught the birds. I think some of you read more into his post based on his use of the word attack (he did say that he stopped the dog with the check cord too.) I now see in his followup post he does mention the dog caught one bird after he launched it. Sounds to me like the young dog is just pointing briefly and then charging in. Not unlike what I think many of us would expect with a young dog with solid prey drive during it's first couple exposures to birds in traps. You're advice was still spot on I thought.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu May 03, 2018 9:15 am

Not all dog's point, some were born to flush and will NEVER steady up without pressure.

Before we get in to that however, I'd steady her in the yard. Most of the time that will do it. Don't take her to the field. Will she stay steady if you throw a dummy? If not, that's step one. She HAS to be steady to hand thrown dummies. Once she is steady to dummies, switch to clip wings. Whoa her and throw a clip wing. Have her on a short cc and pinch collar. If she breaks, no bird. Pick up the bird and throw it again. If she stays, send her. That's her reward. I'll see if I can somewhere find a thorough post I've done on this but for now, no pointing in the field until she's steady in the yard.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu May 03, 2018 9:18 am

Geeze, that was easy. Here ya go.

STEADY, NOW.

Steadying a dog seems to mystify some people, even at the field trial level if we’re speaking of retrievers. The problem with making a dog steady is that steadiness is an “all-the-time-thing”, not a sometimes thing. Once you have a dog steady, if you let him slip once, he IS going to try it again. To start this training the dog should be thoroughly obedience trained and that means coming to heel at your side and looking ahead, not sitting in front facing you. He will sit to the command “SIT!” and also to one blast of the whistle. Understanding that, let’s proceed. If we’re steadying a versatile dog, the same procedure can be used but we’ll leave the dog standing, not make it sit. Otherwise the method is identical. Many pointing will have no interest in a bumper at all but it still teaches them to stay until sent. People that don’t care if the dog retrieves may start with the clip wing pigeon as in stage 5 below.
1). It all starts with the training bumper. I like to use a pinch collar on the dog in it’s early training and a short lead, no more than 3’. The dog understands faster with a pinch collar and he punishes himself, you are doing nothing. Pinch collar on him, or whatever collar you choose if you don’t like them, issue the command “Sit!” to the dog. No other command, just “Sit!”and blow one blast of the whistle. Now say “Mark” and toss the bumper a fairly short distance, 20-30’. The dog will break, hit the end of the 3’ lead, yip when it pinches his neck, and return to you. Don’t let him have the bumper. Walk up to it, pick it up and do it again. He is sent to retrieve using his name, not “fetch” or “get em’ “ or whatever. Only on his name. He only get’s rewarded with the bumper when he does everything correctly. Keep repeating this exercise until he is absolutely perfect, not standing when you throw or rising to a stand before sent. A perfect sit 100% of the time. Is he performing flawlessly? Good, now we’ll to to phase two.
2), Now, dog still on the short lead and pinch collar, walk him at heel around the yard. FIRST, throw the bumper, then command “SIT!”. You are now teaching the dog to sit to flush when ever a bird flushes, even if he didn’t cause the flush. These are called “incidental flushes”. Keep up the routine until you can walk around the yard, toss the bumper without saying a word, and the dog will sit. If he doesn’t, issue no command, just give a sharp jerk on the lead at the instant the bumper is thrown. When he’s perfect at this we should be able to walk him anywhere in the yard, throw a bumper and have him immediately sit. Now, phase three.
3). So far we haven’t tempted him, now we will. Command “SIT!” and throw the bumper. Let’s say your dog’s name is Jack. Throw the bumper and if the dog stays steady, say a different name like “Pete”. He will probably go, hit the end of the lead and return. Don’t say anything but “SIT!” when he returns to heel. I always use a combination of putting my hand over the dog’s nose to give it a line and then his name. It is a double assurance against a break. The dog doesn’t go on his name only, the hand has to be there as well. Do it again. And again. And again. The end result will be he may not want to go until he is absolutely sure it’s his name you’re saying. Good. You’re on you’re way to having a steady dog. Oh yah, mix the names up. Don’t use the same name all the time. Don’t be careful about keeping your body motion quiet either. The dog should sit steady no matter what you do until he sees the hand and hears HIS name.
4). Four is a simple phase. We are going to go through all of this again BUT add a shot (blank pistol, popper, etc) whenever the bumper is thrown. Sounds easy but it may take a while for the dog to get it. Keep at it until he’s perfect.
5). Now, the biggie, we add birds. We will first to through the entire sequence using dead birds, pigeons’ or whatever bird you want. Do this again until he’s perfect. He will go through this very quickly. Use the blank gun and not just the word “Mark”, though you can mix them together. Again do this until he is perfect.
6). Now we’ll add live birds. Notice we are still in the yard and not the field. Use my favorite bird, the clip wing pigeon. Proceed in the exact steps as you did with the bumpers. Start with commanding “SIT!”, throw the bird and shoot. Once he is successful, proceed to tempting him by calling a different name, and when he’s performing that correctly, walk around throwing birds and shooting the blank. Every time you throw a bird and shoot, the dog should automatically sit. You don’t have to have him retrieve all the birds. Let some lie so he doesn’t think he’ll always get every bird thrown. I’d say throw three and let him pick up one. When he’s competent at this, our final phase is the field.
7). What you’d do in the field is to walk along and throw birds, firing the gun as you throw. The dog should sit. When he will do this, release him from heel and let him quarter in front of you. Throw a bird and shoot. He should immediately sit. If he doesn’t, make him. By this time I like to have the dog on the electric collar so enforcement of all commands then becomes instant and simple. When he’s doing that, have electronic traps in the field and pop the birds when the dog is working quartering; incidental flushes. You will also now have to let him flush the birds from the traps and shoot the birds. At the flush, he should automatically sit until commanded to initiate the retrieve.
That’s it. It is something you will work on and reinforce every day of that dog’s life to maintain a steady dog. Most will not bother.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby SMAbby » Thu May 03, 2018 9:22 am

ryanr wrote:
SMAbby wrote:I still want to know about the dog attacking and killing birds. May be bigger problems ahead.


He never said it killed or even caught the birds. I think some of you read more into his post based on his use of the word attack (he did say that he stopped the dog with the check cord too.) I now see in his followup post he does mention the dog caught one bird after he launched it. Sounds to me like the young dog is just pointing briefly and then charging in. Not unlike what I think many of us would expect with a young dog with solid prey drive during it's first couple exposures to birds in traps. You're advice was still spot on I thought.


Re read initial post.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu May 03, 2018 9:50 am

I got that also Smabby that the pup was actively killing the birds.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby orhunter » Thu May 03, 2018 11:01 am

Place board training....., wild birds.

What Griffman said, “get in the dog’s head.” There are reasons for everything. More than likely it’s a handler/trainer problem but that is water under the bridge.
The problem here is, we don’t need to go back and analyze what’s happened in the past and identify why. Doesn’t accomplish anything. It’s all about the fix from the dog’s perspective. Don’t set the dog up to fail by repeating what it has failed at in the past. Takes a whole new approach, something the dog isn’t familiar with.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby ryanr » Thu May 03, 2018 11:06 am

SMAbby wrote:
ryanr wrote:
SMAbby wrote:I still want to know about the dog attacking and killing birds. May be bigger problems ahead.


He never said it killed or even caught the birds. I think some of you read more into his post based on his use of the word attack (he did say that he stopped the dog with the check cord too.) I now see in his followup post he does mention the dog caught one bird after he launched it. Sounds to me like the young dog is just pointing briefly and then charging in. Not unlike what I think many of us would expect with a young dog with solid prey drive during it's first couple exposures to birds in traps. You're advice was still spot on I thought.


Re read initial post.


Oh dang, my bad. I'm an idiot, sorry Mary.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby SMAbby » Thu May 03, 2018 11:48 am

Come on mannn, your not an idjit....LMAO

Crappie bite is on, who wants to go?
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby ryanr » Thu May 03, 2018 11:51 am

SMAbby wrote:Come on mannn, your not an idjit....LMAO

Crappie bite is on, who wants to go?


Crappie fishing- ooh, them slabs is good eats. How long a drive is it to Iowa from PA?
Last edited by ryanr on Thu May 03, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby AverageGuy » Thu May 03, 2018 11:56 am

No reason both approaches can be used. Work on training the dog to be steady away from birds using lesser distractions in your yard, on a walk, going through doors, feeding time, as recommended by several. You will need the training to steady the dog to WSF at some point anyway.

And work the dog in silence using ideally strong flying homing pigeons to reduce costs of training birds at this stage, and remote control launchers in the manner SMAbby's post recommends. The approach presents the training birds in a reasonable facsimile to a wild bird while allowing the trainer to control the encounter for both the dog and the bird, and allows the trainer to anticipate where the dog will encounter the bird and what cover it will be in, so the trainer can launch the bird at the correct moment.

The approach is laid out in the Perfect Start DVD if you are inclined to buy some instruction materials at this point. I am sure you would not regret the purchase.

None of which can be done on wild birds, particularly those that live in heavy cover.

Repetitions will in most cases trigger the dog's pointing instinct at some point. Pressuring a dog into pointing birds is the chief cause of flagging on birds. Which ruins a dog for me.

And it occurs to me to ask, Have you consulted with the dog's Breeder on this?
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby SMAbby » Thu May 03, 2018 2:48 pm

ryanr wrote:
SMAbby wrote:Come on mannn, your not an idjit....LMAO

Crappie bite is on, who wants to go?


Crappie fishing- ooh, them slabs is good eats. How long a drive is it to Iowa from PA?


Shrooms should be popping too after this rain. Just a dad bit of sun and we will be feasting on crappie and shrooms. 8)
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
Baja vom Wamsbach VJP 64, HZP 169, NA 112
Anka vom Loofkamp VJP 66, HZP 139,HZP 172, NA 112
Krystal Creeks Untamed Spirit ( Abby) NA 93 Prize III UT 200 Prize II
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu May 03, 2018 6:20 pm

Boxertwin: you might get Farris' book, "Breeding and Training Versatile Hunting Dogs for Hunting and Hunt Tests". I get it that you have only hand release launchers and few birds so I think his techniques will be helpful, specifically the chapters on preparing for hunt tests and steadiness training for wild birds.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby ryanr » Fri May 04, 2018 5:44 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I got that also Smabby that the pup was actively killing the birds.


It actually killed one. It's also pointing (albeit briefly) and then charging in not unlike lots of young versatiles I've come across during their early stages of bird intro.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri May 04, 2018 6:13 am

Doesn't matter. Steps to cure it are the same. If it kills every bird, that's a different problem.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri May 04, 2018 6:13 am

Doesn't matter. Steps to cure it are the same. If it kills every bird, that's a different problem.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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