PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

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PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby Boxertwin » Wed May 02, 2018 12:39 pm

I am working on my 10 month old PP and pointing. She will point a bird for about 1/2 second and then rush in to attack it. I have done a few sessions of pigeon pole training and planted birds in release traps with her and she always wants to creep in on it to attack. I of course stop her on the check cord and try to steady her but her mind is only on "must kill bird" and not seeming to pick up on that I want her to stop and stay. I have done the pick her up and praise her thing but she doesn't care. A bird is better than praise.

The problem is, the first time we went out to do this. I was hooking up the bird while she was tied up to the truck. As I let go of the bird, she broke her check cord, ran in and grabbed the bird, killing it. Now she sees a bird and she wants to do that again.

I love that she has a strong prey drive but I need to find some ways to dial it back a bit.
Any good tips on getting her to stop and point?
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby ReefWhooligan » Wed May 02, 2018 2:04 pm

I would think the dog has to know he can't catch the bird. You could put pigeons in launchers and, as soon as he breaks, launch it and let it fly away. After a bit of that alternate it with something you can shoot. If the dog stays steady you launch and shoot the bird and let the dog pick it up. Teach him that the only way he gets a bird in his mouth is if he stays still.

At the same time you can start being more forceful with stopping the break. Put a prong collar and keep the check cord tight while he lunges. Ramp that up to yanking the cord as he breaks for a really good reminder that he shouldn't do it. This ties into having a solid whoa command already drilled into him.

Edit: I should have clarified that this was basically our training over the course of a summer, not a weekend project.
Last edited by ReefWhooligan on Thu May 03, 2018 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby ryanr » Wed May 02, 2018 3:08 pm

No offense but I wouldn't even think about shooting birds for the dog at this stage and I definitely wouldn't be trying to bring out the pointing instinct more in this young dog by yanking and cranking on a pinch collar if it breaks point.

Just keep launching birds. It just takes more than a couple sessions. It might take a week, maybe 2 but the dog will learn to start holding its points more. Don't force it at this stage. I have a 10 month old female GWP and we're at a similar stage. Most of what we're doing is launching pigeons if she breaks and sating vwry lottle to her. Calm praise for when she's holding ans nothing when she breaks, just launch the bird. She had her NA in June and then Force Fetch after that for the summer. Actual steadiness training won't happen until late summer eaely fall and most of it will occur away from birds and the field. The final step will be shooting birds for her when she does all of that correctly and the reward is the retrieve. Hence, why we're doing FF before steadiness with the idea that it will help reinforce steadiness better.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby SMAbby » Wed May 02, 2018 5:22 pm

Boxertwin wrote:I am working on my 10 month old PP and pointing. She will point a bird for about 1/2 second and then rush in to attack it. I have done a few sessions of pigeon pole training and planted birds in release traps with her and she always wants to creep in on it to attack. I of course stop her on the check cord and try to steady her but her mind is only on "must kill bird" and not seeming to pick up on that I want her to stop and stay. I have done the pick her up and praise her thing but she doesn't care. A bird is better than praise.

The problem is, the first time we went out to do this. I was hooking up the bird while she was tied up to the truck. As I let go of the bird, she broke her check cord, ran in and grabbed the bird, killing it. Now she sees a bird and she wants to do that again.

I love that she has a strong prey drive but I need to find some ways to dial it back a bit.
Any good tips on getting her to stop and point?


First I would like your definition of "aattacking the bird"

No more Pole, No more check cord(for now, there is a time and place for everything and now it not it). No more talking to her, period.

With all due respect I can never understand why people are waiting to see the puppy point, when time after time they have taken the birds out? I know, I know, we all have done it. I am guilty. But now I see it as silly and pointless.....see what I did there... :lol: :lol:

Load pigeons in trap, hopefully multiple traps. Run the field like you are on an actual hunt except you happen to know where the game is.
READ your dog, when it hits the scent cone, with its next THOUGHT of a step, the bird is gone......Say NOTHING, roll to the next one, same drill. If this dog has a brain and any talent, she will pick this up pretty quickly.

Another thing, if she misses a trap, please dont stand around. This will cause her to totally depend on you to find the birds and send her ques you dont want her to pick up. Do you have a chance to stand around a wild bird until your dog finds it???? Roll on to the next, the bird isnt going to go anywhere.........its in a trap.

Birds are the other issue, only strong flying homers or bridge pigeons should be used. I have given up on buying pigeons at swaps that have been sitting in a cage for a week or better. They go ip and drop like a brick and you have bigger issues now.

If you pick up young homers, they need to be trap conditioned. I have had younger birds come out........hesitate in midair...and then take off, luckly my dog was steady.

DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE BIRDS. You need birds to train a bird dog and if your going to penny pinch, tether birds, card birds, etc its going to put you in a hole
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby SMAbby » Wed May 02, 2018 5:24 pm

also sounds like you have a wild child. 10 months she should have had some controls put on her by now.

BTW, if you or anyone else is anywhere around me in Iowa. I have birds, will help train. My birds will need the exercise this year, im taking a break. :wink:
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby AverageGuy » Wed May 02, 2018 5:33 pm

SMAbby wrote:First I would like your definition of "aattacking the bird"

No more Pole, No more check cord(for now, there is a time and place for everything and now it not it). No more talking to her, period.

With all due respect I can never understand why people are waiting to see the puppy point, when time after time they have taken the birds out? I know, I know, we all have done it. I am guilty. But now I see it as silly and pointless.....see what I did there... :lol: :lol:

Load pigeons in trap, hopefully multiple traps. Run the field like you are on an actual hunt except you happen to know where the game is.
READ your dog, when it hits the scent cone, with its next THOUGHT of a step, the bird is gone......Say NOTHING, roll to the next one, same drill. If this dog has a brain and any talent, she will pick this up pretty quickly.

Another thing, if she misses a trap, please dont stand around. This will cause her to totally depend on you to find the birds and send her ques you dont want her to pick up. Do you have a chance to stand around a wild bird until your dog finds it???? Roll on to the next, the bird isnt going to go anywhere.........its in a trap.

Birds are the other issue, only strong flying homers or bridge pigeons should be used. I have given up on buying pigeons at swaps that have been sitting in a cage for a week or better. They go ip and drop like a brick and you have bigger issues now.

If you pick up young homers, they need to be trap conditioned. I have had younger birds come out........hesitate in midair...and then take off, luckly my dog was steady.

DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE BIRDS. You need birds to train a bird dog and if your going to penny pinch, tether birds, card birds, etc its going to put you in a hole


x2
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed May 02, 2018 5:56 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
SMAbby wrote:First I would like your definition of "aattacking the bird"

No more Pole, No more check cord(for now, there is a time and place for everything and now it not it). No more talking to her, period.

With all due respect I can never understand why people are waiting to see the puppy point, when time after time they have taken the birds out? I know, I know, we all have done it. I am guilty. But now I see it as silly and pointless.....see what I did there... :lol: :lol:

Load pigeons in trap, hopefully multiple traps. Run the field like you are on an actual hunt except you happen to know where the game is.
READ your dog, when it hits the scent cone, with its next THOUGHT of a step, the bird is gone......Say NOTHING, roll to the next one, same drill. If this dog has a brain and any talent, she will pick this up pretty quickly.

Another thing, if she misses a trap, please dont stand around. This will cause her to totally depend on you to find the birds and send her ques you dont want her to pick up. Do you have a chance to stand around a wild bird until your dog finds it???? Roll on to the next, the bird isnt going to go anywhere.........its in a trap.

Birds are the other issue, only strong flying homers or bridge pigeons should be used. I have given up on buying pigeons at swaps that have been sitting in a cage for a week or better. They go ip and drop like a brick and you have bigger issues now.

If you pick up young homers, they need to be trap conditioned. I have had younger birds come out........hesitate in midair...and then take off, luckly my dog was steady.

DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE BIRDS. You need birds to train a bird dog and if your going to penny pinch, tether birds, card birds, etc its going to put you in a hole


x2


X3...

Should be a sticky!!!!

My only add is that I budgeted a trip to get my last pup on wild birds.

After jerking around with planted birds with the prior 3 dogs, I realized the better route.

Good luck,

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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby SMAbby » Wed May 02, 2018 6:00 pm

3drahthaars wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:
SMAbby wrote:First I would like your definition of "aattacking the bird"

No more Pole, No more check cord(for now, there is a time and place for everything and now it not it). No more talking to her, period.

With all due respect I can never understand why people are waiting to see the puppy point, when time after time they have taken the birds out? I know, I know, we all have done it. I am guilty. But now I see it as silly and pointless.....see what I did there... :lol: :lol:

Load pigeons in trap, hopefully multiple traps. Run the field like you are on an actual hunt except you happen to know where the game is.
READ your dog, when it hits the scent cone, with its next THOUGHT of a step, the bird is gone......Say NOTHING, roll to the next one, same drill. If this dog has a brain and any talent, she will pick this up pretty quickly.

Another thing, if she misses a trap, please dont stand around. This will cause her to totally depend on you to find the birds and send her ques you dont want her to pick up. Do you have a chance to stand around a wild bird until your dog finds it???? Roll on to the next, the bird isnt going to go anywhere.........its in a trap.

Birds are the other issue, only strong flying homers or bridge pigeons should be used. I have given up on buying pigeons at swaps that have been sitting in a cage for a week or better. They go ip and drop like a brick and you have bigger issues now.

If you pick up young homers, they need to be trap conditioned. I have had younger birds come out........hesitate in midair...and then take off, luckly my dog was steady.

DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE BIRDS. You need birds to train a bird dog and if your going to penny pinch, tether birds, card birds, etc its going to put you in a hole


x2


X3...

Should be a sticky!!!!

My only add is that I budgeted a trip to get my last pup on wild birds.

After jerking around with planted birds with the prior 3 dogs, I realized the better route.

Good luck,

3ds


x100000000000
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
Baja vom Wamsbach VJP 64, HZP 169, NA 112
Anka vom Loofkamp VJP 66, HZP 139,HZP 172, NA 112
Krystal Creeks Untamed Spirit ( Abby) NA 93 Prize III UT 200 Prize II
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed May 02, 2018 8:08 pm

Agree with the above but here's an alternative: I like to have the dog know "whoa" command solidly (and can use continuous stim in this instance to get enforcement) and then take dog on walks and every now and then throw a homer out of my vest and say "whoa". Dog is on check cord and is encouraged to whoa when bird goes up. After doing that until the dog is 99% then next start walking down wind with the dog at heel and release birds from traps as we go along. The dog should whoa when the bird goes up. Then, and much later, you can walk cross wind and as soon as the dog hits scent you release trap. At this point the dog should be holding point.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby ryanr » Wed May 02, 2018 8:48 pm

SMAbby wrote:
Boxertwin wrote:I am working on my 10 month old PP and pointing. She will point a bird for about 1/2 second and then rush in to attack it. I have done a few sessions of pigeon pole training and planted birds in release traps with her and she always wants to creep in on it to attack. I of course stop her on the check cord and try to steady her but her mind is only on "must kill bird" and not seeming to pick up on that I want her to stop and stay. I have done the pick her up and praise her thing but she doesn't care. A bird is better than praise.

The problem is, the first time we went out to do this. I was hooking up the bird while she was tied up to the truck. As I let go of the bird, she broke her check cord, ran in and grabbed the bird, killing it. Now she sees a bird and she wants to do that again.

I love that she has a strong prey drive but I need to find some ways to dial it back a bit.
Any good tips on getting her to stop and point?


First I would like your definition of "aattacking the bird"

No more Pole, No more check cord(for now, there is a time and place for everything and now it not it). No more talking to her, period.

With all due respect I can never understand why people are waiting to see the puppy point, when time after time they have taken the birds out? I know, I know, we all have done it. I am guilty. But now I see it as silly and pointless.....see what I did there... :lol: :lol:

Load pigeons in trap, hopefully multiple traps. Run the field like you are on an actual hunt except you happen to know where the game is.
READ your dog, when it hits the scent cone, with its next THOUGHT of a step, the bird is gone......Say NOTHING, roll to the next one, same drill. If this dog has a brain and any talent, she will pick this up pretty quickly.

Another thing, if she misses a trap, please dont stand around. This will cause her to totally depend on you to find the birds and send her ques you dont want her to pick up. Do you have a chance to stand around a wild bird until your dog finds it???? Roll on to the next, the bird isnt going to go anywhere.........its in a trap.

Birds are the other issue, only strong flying homers or bridge pigeons should be used. I have given up on buying pigeons at swaps that have been sitting in a cage for a week or better. They go ip and drop like a brick and you have bigger issues now.

If you pick up young homers, they need to be trap conditioned. I have had younger birds come out........hesitate in midair...and then take off, luckly my dog was steady.

DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE BIRDS. You need birds to train a bird dog and if your going to penny pinch, tether birds, card birds, etc its going to put you in a hole


Yup, what she just said.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby SMAbby » Wed May 02, 2018 8:59 pm

I still want to know about the dog attacking and killing birds. May be bigger problems ahead.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu May 03, 2018 12:44 am

SMAbby wrote:I still want to know about the dog attacking and killing birds. May be bigger problems ahead.


I'm wondering that too. With all due respect I'm not seeing where releasing birds here and there (just as soon as the dog scents the bird) encourages the dog to stop roading in and stop wanting to catch the bird. Many dogs just want to chase and popping birds doesn't discourage that. Boxertwin said that his dog won't hold a point and attacks the bird after a flash point but didn't say what his dog does when a bird is released. My guess is that it will chase because it has caught them before and wants to do it again. STF training gives you tools to stop that.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby Boxertwin » Thu May 03, 2018 3:13 am

So yeah, after launch, she chases it for as long as she can. She managed to pull one down from about 5 feet in the air. I don't have automatic launchers, only foot release ones and unless I am out on a NAVDA training day, I am usually by myself so holding her steady on the cord while manually releasing the bird etc. is a bit of cat juggling.

I don't mind buying birds even though they charge $6 a bird at the place we train at.

We have been work whoa for months and she is good in most places on it. When a live bird is around, her brain turns to jello however.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby Urban_Redneck » Thu May 03, 2018 6:11 am

My dog is recovery too :shock: it's not the end of the world. Ideally, you'd have a coop full of homers and a training partner, the next best thing, invest in a remote launcher or two, it's small potatoes compared to what you (will) have into the dog over the next 10-12 years. I recently attending a 3 day seminar with Mo Lindley and Dave "Jonesy" Jones, so I'm an expert :lol: Watching those guys work my dog on the check cord taught me it's a learned skill to stay in position to issue a meaningful correction.

I would keep him on a 12' check cord don't let him drag you around. Be ruthless with launching birds as soon as he has the scent, do not "wait to see if he's going to point". I don't issue any corrections while the bird is on the ground. At the flush, don't yank him just hold your ground, walk down the cc, steady him up, and issue calm praise. Do that twice, and put him up to think about it. Do that a few times over the course of a week or two. If he shows improvement, i.e. steadies at the flush from the launcher, holding the cc, throw a bird (fresh dead is great) from your pocket and let your partner shoot it. Steady the pup up, praise, and send your partner for the retrieve, then give your dog the bird for 30 seconds.

I wouldn't let him have the retrieve for several months, this teaches him the bird belongs to you, if he wants feathers in his mouth he has to point and be steady -anticipating a retrieve is a big reason why dogs creep and break.

Remember: About the only thing 2 dog trainers can agree on is the third guy is doing all wrong. Pick the path that makes sense to you and follow it, cherry picking a bit from one guy and bit from another, rarely works.
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Re: PP wants to attack the bird and not point it.

Postby GRIFF MAN » Thu May 03, 2018 7:33 am

Boxertwin wrote:So yeah, after launch, she chases it for as long as she can. She managed to pull one down from about 5 feet in the air. I don't have automatic launchers, only foot release ones and unless I am out on a NAVDA training day, I am usually by myself so holding her steady on the cord while manually releasing the bird etc. is a bit of cat juggling.

I don't mind buying birds even though they charge $6 a bird at the place we train at.

We have been work whoa for months and she is good in most places on it. When a live bird is around, her brain turns to jello however.



First, I agree with Smabby 100% I have done this with many dogs and it works well. The only thing is you need to know the dog well, get in its head. Is it just confused on what you want or was allowed to catch/get to birds to easily and now thinks thats what it is trained to do ?? The second one is harder to fix, but not impossible.

If you are training alone you are only compounding the issue and making it worse. I would spend the money and find a trainer to help you with this.

I have seen some well bred dogs that ended up being really expensive flushers because the owner never got a handle on things early on.

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