What happened?

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Re: What happened?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:00 am

E-collar should only be used ONLY AFTER a dog KNOWS a command thoroughly. This means they should perform a command 95% of the time without correction.

If you are using the e-collar every day for recall, I'd say your dog doesn't even know that well.

Leave the e-collar on, but STOP using it except for safety. Your dog clearly doesn't understand what it means as well as you thought she did.

Go back and review basic obedience. Get your dog fired up for training with lots of rewards. After a month of purely positive training, repeat the complete collar conditioning program. DO NOT skimp on this!!!! You need to start over and slow down. Hopefully you just had a bad day and things aren't as bad as they sound, but there's some extremely concerning things happening here, and you need to start over.
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Re: What happened?

Postby daeion » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:25 pm

booger wrote:I recognize that username from the MN DHC forum, are you in the twin cities area? If you are there's a really great MN NAVHDA chapter that I'm involved in.


Yeah, that's me. I had thought about joining NAVHDA but I have no plans to ever test my dog and with limited funds I felt the cost of the membership plus the cost of the Kelly pass could be better spent working directly with a trainer. Up until this attempt at FF I had been very happy with the trainer and what she was teaching both me and the dog.
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Re: What happened?

Postby booger » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:58 pm

daeion wrote:
booger wrote:I recognize that username from the MN DHC forum, are you in the twin cities area? If you are there's a really great MN NAVHDA chapter that I'm involved in.


Yeah, that's me. I had thought about joining NAVHDA but I have no plans to ever test my dog and with limited funds I felt the cost of the membership plus the cost of the Kelly pass could be better spent working directly with a trainer. Up until this attempt at FF I had been very happy with the trainer and what she was teaching both me and the dog.


Being a novice training/handler I shy away from criticizing any trainers. We can't see what's going on, so I won't comment on her being good, bad, whatever.

I will say the cost is minimal for what you're getting:

a pass to come out and train your dog on 2300+ acres, many ponds, 365 days a year
help from guys with tons of experience
a support group of other guys with similar (or worse) problems
different opinions, some will work for your dog, some won't, you'll learn what does and doesn't work
doing the training yourself, you learn more, you learn to read your dog better
access to birds (pigeons, quail, chukar, pheasant, duck) and at cost
more places to "generalize" or proof your dog

You don't have to test to be in NAVHDA or to train with the group. The training is centered on test principles but those are useful for hunting as well.

I can't emphasize enough how helpful this training group has been for me. My breeder has given me a ton of great advice also.

I think if you just want to come out and see what it is like for a day you can (free). That'll give you an idea if it is something you want to do or not.
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Re: What happened?

Postby daeion » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:11 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
If you are using the e-collar every day for recall, I'd say your dog doesn't even know that well.



To clarify the using the e-collar for recall, I use the tone feature for recall and 80% of the time when I tone her or give her the verbal command she comes, the other 20% if she ignores the command 50% of the time giving her a vibration stim will get her to come, 40% of the time the vibe is not enough and it takes a electrical stim on 2/10 to get her to come, the remaining 10% it might take up to a 3 or 4 depending on why she is ignoring the command. Her coming when the wife calls is a different thing though... So maybe I'm misreading her, but this tells me she knows the command and is choosing to ignore it.
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Re: What happened?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:17 pm

daeion wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
If you are using the e-collar every day for recall, I'd say your dog doesn't even know that well.



To clarify the using the e-collar for recall, I use the tone feature for recall and 80% of the time when I tone her or give her the verbal command she comes, the other 20% if she ignores the command 50% of the time giving her a vibration stim will get her to come, 40% of the time the vibe is not enough and it takes a electrical stim on 2/10 to get her to come, the remaining 10% it might take up to a 3 or 4 depending on why she is ignoring the command. Her coming when the wife calls is a different thing though... So maybe I'm misreading her, but this tells me she knows the command and is choosing to ignore it.


Those responses are totally unacceptable. An untrained dog does that well. Truly, you need help with this.
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Re: What happened?

Postby daeion » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:13 pm

booger wrote:
daeion wrote:
booger wrote:I recognize that username from the MN DHC forum, are you in the twin cities area? If you are there's a really great MN NAVHDA chapter that I'm involved in.


Yeah, that's me. I had thought about joining NAVHDA but I have no plans to ever test my dog and with limited funds I felt the cost of the membership plus the cost of the Kelly pass could be better spent working directly with a trainer. Up until this attempt at FF I had been very happy with the trainer and what she was teaching both me and the dog.


Being a novice training/handler I shy away from criticizing any trainers. We can't see what's going on, so I won't comment on her being good, bad, whatever.

I will say the cost is minimal for what you're getting:

a pass to come out and train your dog on 2300+ acres, many ponds, 365 days a year
help from guys with tons of experience
a support group of other guys with similar (or worse) problems
different opinions, some will work for your dog, some won't, you'll learn what does and doesn't work
doing the training yourself, you learn more, you learn to read your dog better
access to birds (pigeons, quail, chukar, pheasant, duck) and at cost
more places to "generalize" or proof your dog

You don't have to test to be in NAVHDA or to train with the group. The training is centered on test principles but those are useful for hunting as well.

I can't emphasize enough how helpful this training group has been for me. My breeder has given me a ton of great advice also.

I think if you just want to come out and see what it is like for a day you can (free). That'll give you an idea if it is something you want to do or not.


Oh I'm not saying you don't get a lot, it's just that it's $400 a year and your dog hasn't received any kind of training or seen a bird yet, plus weeknights don't really work for me, if they had a weekend training group it would have been more enticing.
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Re: What happened?

Postby daeion » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:16 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
daeion wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
If you are using the e-collar every day for recall, I'd say your dog doesn't even know that well.



To clarify the using the e-collar for recall, I use the tone feature for recall and 80% of the time when I tone her or give her the verbal command she comes, the other 20% if she ignores the command 50% of the time giving her a vibration stim will get her to come, 40% of the time the vibe is not enough and it takes a electrical stim on 2/10 to get her to come, the remaining 10% it might take up to a 3 or 4 depending on why she is ignoring the command. Her coming when the wife calls is a different thing though... So maybe I'm misreading her, but this tells me she knows the command and is choosing to ignore it.


Those responses are totally unacceptable. An untrained dog does that well. Truly, you need help with this.


I might be off in my estimations, she comes whenever I call her in the house but that to me doesn't count as there's no distraction, so this was based upon how she acts when I call her in from the backyard, guess I could actually track it. And yes, I'm aware that I need help.
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Re: What happened?

Postby Willie T » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:59 pm

Daeion. Getting involved in a training group would be a good move. It should fast track you in understanding where to set the bar for you and your dog. Meeting training partners that you get to see how their dogs run and how they interact first hand with their dogs will be a big help in figuring out what and who to pay attention to. In my honest opinion it would be money well spent for you.
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Re: What happened?

Postby SMAbby » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:27 pm

At the end the trainer decided to try it with no pressure at all so we took off the e-collar,


Seems bassakwards to me. You took the fun, the joy, the excitement away. Just because FF is FF doesnt mean it cant utilize the dog and this breeds excitement about the retrieve.

Back up, tke time off, have fun. If this is just a hunting dog not a big deal. If you hope to test, than realize you dont set a date to have training done by. You wait until she is ready then test.

Edited because my alter ego was a little rough yesterday.
Last edited by SMAbby on Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What happened?

Postby ryanr » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:16 pm

Oh I'm not saying you don't get a lot, it's just that it's $400 a year and your dog hasn't received any kind of training or seen a bird yet, plus weeknights don't really work for me, if they had a weekend training group it would have been more enticing.


Not for nothing but how much have you spent so far on the trainer and birds?
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