discipline advice

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Re: discipline advice

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:56 pm

At 4 months old??? If it's that uncooperative at 4 months old, I'm gonna send it down the road.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:26 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Perfect Start DVD shows how to teach recall and use ecollar introduction in association with it (and a whole lot more training your pup will need).

Much as you may want to, disciplining the pup at that age when it does not recall only teaches it to not recall all the more. I do not call my pups when they are engaged in something and their body language strongly suggests they are unlikely to come when called. Doing so just teaches them to ignore the command.

Instead I have the puppy dragging a light check cord always. I calmly move towards the pup until I can get my foot on the cord, call it and give a tug on the check cord at the same time, kneeling down to praise the puppy when it arrives. If the pup was super bold and likely to run off in your urban setting, I would not turn it loose there.

Above all else I would not call the puppy when I was not in a position to re-enforce the command immediately if it did not comply. Re-enforcing the command consists of simply tugging on the check cord lightly and saying Come or Here depending on which command you choose. Pull the puppy all the way if you need to once you have given the command, but try not to make a habit of that. Picking your spots as to when to call the puppy is very important at this stage as any good pup is likely to be more interested in the world around it vs being at your side. Luring the puppy with a treat or a toy is not a bad idea initially either. And I would always act happy when the puppy arrived to me whether I was in reality happy or not.


I think it's all in the above. Timing is important, keeping the check cord on is important, and when you call the pup always have a treat ready. Later you can add the collar but right now you'll be surprised at the response when you pay for the performance.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby slistoe » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:54 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:At 4 months old??? If it's that uncooperative at 4 months old, I'm gonna send it down the road.

4 months, 6 months or 8 months the time will come. For some dogs sooner than others. If the time doesn't come then I will send the dog down the road. I don't need a dog with no mind of its own.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby 80s750 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:52 pm

I should explain a little more. When I am taking the dog out I always have a check cord on him. The two kids and Wife are less reliable and haven't heeded my requests to do essentially what most of you are suggesting. He gets lots of play time in the yard and 3 or 4 times a week in a wooded area where I have no concerns. When working on recall I do wait till he is not so obviously distracted and try to set him up for success every time. But again these issues are the one offs he's taken off on the kids. My issue is when he does get out and I am told he is. I go out he looks at me I say here which usually works and it doesn't and he buggers off out sight. I don't call again. I'll concede he's not ready to be tested off cc yet there's no way to know a dog is 100% off a cc unless you test him at some point. It does almost appear like a tantrum when I go to get him. I'm not aggressive with him because I agree giving him $#*! while running after him would absolutely be counter productive. I think some damage has been done so I will have to work through it end of the day.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby randomnut » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:10 pm

hicntry wrote:In a pups mind, coming to you means getting bored to death with some more drills even if there is no correction. People want their pups to be outstanding examples so they can have bragging rights. So, now the pup is outside in a fascinating world and he wants to see it a lot more than he wants to run more drills. Now the pup doesn't want to come back and to get him back you will have to resort to force only because you have created your own problem. You want your pups to come to you willingly??? Forget the drills until six mo old and keep out of the pups face. Take them outside to roam as much as possible and then some.... then he might see you as something mother than a major buzz kill.


I've rarely agreed with you, but I'm 100% with you here. Leave the leash off, and let the dog hunt.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:50 am

randomnut wrote:
hicntry wrote:In a pups mind, coming to you means getting bored to death with some more drills even if there is no correction. People want their pups to be outstanding examples so they can have bragging rights. So, now the pup is outside in a fascinating world and he wants to see it a lot more than he wants to run more drills. Now the pup doesn't want to come back and to get him back you will have to resort to force only because you have created your own problem. You want your pups to come to you willingly??? Forget the drills until six mo old and keep out of the pups face. Take them outside to roam as much as possible and then some.... then he might see you as something mother than a major buzz kill.


I've rarely agreed with you, but I'm 100% with you here. Leave the leash off, and let the dog hunt.


It is not at all an either or proposition. Myself and many others do both starting early and often. Pick your spots, read the puppy and strike the right balance between developing the pups independence and shaping behavior at the same time.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby JONOV » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:15 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:At 4 months old??? If it's that uncooperative at 4 months old, I'm gonna send it down the road.

Really? 4 Months is about when they decide that the butterfly, cowpie, tweety bird, woodcock, goose, is infinitely more interesting than you are. Nothing unusual about that.

And the dog running circles means he thinks its a game. Not an uncooperative dog per se.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby Duckdon » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:51 pm

80s750 wrote:Need help. I have a 4 and a half month SM pup. Generally he's a great dog. Have worked recall, heel and whoa with him. Also some tracking. He's done well and when on a check cord his recall is 95%. When off it he is about 50%. Where this becomes an issue is I'm not sure how to discipline him when he doesn't return. Some days I walk away and he'll come find me but do I praise him then for coming even though he disobeyed the original command? Second if he is scolded with a stern No he will often take off running loops and will not come to a recall. Its getting bad because he is running through the neighborhood now. Its in the country with a high speed road and half acre lots and farm fields not a safe place for him to be wondering. How do I discipline him when I finally catch him. I have not struck him and to my knowledge no one else has either. Forgive me if this has been posted already I couldn't find it.


Any good reason not to collar condition him to the "Here" command?
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Re: discipline advice

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:08 am

JONOV wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:At 4 months old??? If it's that uncooperative at 4 months old, I'm gonna send it down the road.

Really? 4 Months is about when they decide that the butterfly, cowpie, tweety bird, woodcock, goose, is infinitely more interesting than you are. Nothing unusual about that.

And the dog running circles means he thinks its a game. Not an uncooperative dog per se.


At 4 months you should still be the most fun thing around... maybe I'm better at building engagement from day one. It's definitely a skill but it becomes second nature quickly.

http://leerburg.com/EngagementDVD.htm
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Re: discipline advice

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:22 pm

ryanr wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:You DONT discipline him when he comes back. Otherwise you are disciplining him for doing what you wanted, and he's less likely to come back the next time.

Turn around and walk away. When he catches up, make a big deal about what a good dog he is.

Train a collar grab. https://youtu.be/UQWY4A4teRM


And it works great, walking away, right up until the young dog finally decides it doesn't give a crap. Which actually happens. At various stages of puppyhood I think every dog I've had has gotten to that point.

I
Can't disagree with not disciplinig
when pup returns... pup has to trusr that coming back is good.

Gets back to breeding. Well balanced, biddible pups learn to return.

Hardheads earn the collar sooner... and usually wear it their entire lives (with the exception of test days), eh?

Never see that on the score sheets...

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Re: discipline advice

Postby ryanr » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:26 pm

Oh I live what you're speaking of, I have a collar dog for sure. That's the 5yr old, he's got a real good nose and drive but some of the other stuff can be exhausting at times. He can be a sweetheart though. But my new pup, I don't think so. Biddability was definitely the #1 trait I wanted if I got a second dog and I really think I got it with her.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby JONOV » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:42 pm

3drahthaars wrote:
ryanr wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:You DONT discipline him when he comes back. Otherwise you are disciplining him for doing what you wanted, and he's less likely to come back the next time.

Turn around and walk away. When he catches up, make a big deal about what a good dog he is.

Train a collar grab. https://youtu.be/UQWY4A4teRM


And it works great, walking away, right up until the young dog finally decides it doesn't give a crap. Which actually happens. At various stages of puppyhood I think every dog I've had has gotten to that point.

I
Can't disagree with not disciplinig
when pup returns... pup has to trusr that coming back is good.

Gets back to breeding. Well balanced, biddible pups learn to return.

Hardheads earn the collar sooner... and usually wear it their entire lives (with the exception of test days), eh?

Never see that on the score sheets...

3ds

There are some dogs that have a triple dose of f-you in them...but 4 months doesn’t seem early for a dog to develop the “nah, not coming back “ thing...my dog is generally cooperative and even keeled and started giving me the finger at 4.5 months...worked through it easily enough though.

All the same, the dog running circles around OP says to me that he’s made it a game.
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Re: discipline advice

Postby LongHammer » Mon May 07, 2018 12:28 pm

When I was a kid I always got a kick out of my neighbors running around chasing me hollering threats they can never make good on! :lol:
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Re: discipline advice

Postby J D Patrick » Tue May 08, 2018 6:05 am

LongHammer wrote:When I was a kid I always got a kick out of my neighbors running around chasing me hollering threats they can never make good on! :lol:



thanks for that one! Gave me a chuckle
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Re: discipline advice

Postby 80s750 » Wed May 09, 2018 8:14 pm

Thanks for the advice. I knew consistency with the recall would be a big thing. And I hadn't disciplined because I didn't quite think he would put two and two together. I'm pretty sure a couple of you nailed it. He wanted more and thought we were into a game. That coupled with a daughter who despite being told uses here repeatedly. She means well but stubborn as all vet out the other one gets it no problem. So for those of you with constructive comments thank you. To those of you who are full of themselves. If you were looking for so.e one to worship you your sadly mistaken.
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