Hard mouth Pup

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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:17 pm

OP-I'm not familiar with your FF methodology and not sure my advice applies. I don't have a clear enough read on what is happening to confidently advise you, other than to state I use a timer to cap FF sessions at a maximum of ten minutes once a day. I think the lack of a clear read is the biggest pitfall of internet training.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby crackerd » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:15 am

Willie T wrote:OP-I'm not familiar with your FF methodology and not sure my advice applies. I don't have a clear enough read on what is happening to confidently advise you, other than to state I use a timer to cap FF sessions at a maximum of ten minutes once a day. I think the lack of a clear read is the biggest pitfall of internet training.


So how much clearer can you say that you DON'T force dogs on birds - especially frozen birds, especially birds the dog has already willingly (and gently ["Open wide - Good dog!!!"]) retrieved? And doing this with quail, because "they're a different object to be retrieved?" You're sending a personalized invitation invitation to the dog to join you in putting on a hard-mouthing clinic...with both your psychic scarring on display.

MG
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:33 am

First you have to realize that most V dog's hate rote work like obedience or Force, so you will encounter rebellious reactions that will come and go with the training. Your job is to not make a simple reaction a future problem.

Second, and it's hard to tell from your post, but I think you're using birds too early. Birds are for the end, to happy the dog up some. Any good bird dog will retrieve birds, you never have to worry about that, you just have to teach them to handle birds like the bumpers; not to work their jaws and munch them. I detest frozen birds and this is their only real use; they do nothing to cure hard mouth. So them become a FINISHING touch, a treat for the dog after the dowel's and bumpers, not a part of training with force left to do. Start with frozen quail, then pigeons. If they're frozen the dog can't hurt them but learns to carry a large circumference bird. Only when they're through the frozen birds and finally the ftp do you add a hot bird. It's a reward as well as a training object but by now, there should be no force involved.

Third, 50 retrieves? That's rediculous. Have a pile with six bumpers on it no more than 20 yards out. When you can push them enroute to that pile, they're forced and anything else is boredom. It is at this point that if you're going to teach handling, you go to the T. If not, he's finished with force.

So I believe that what you are seeing right now is an act of rebellion against the boring pile work. By munching the bird he's showing you that he's mad, bored and done with this boring crap. On to something else. He'll start walking to the pile pretty soon if you keep it up.

You give very sketchy information on your posts so it's hard to make an accurate assesment without seeing the dog, but this is what I think is going on.

Let me ask again, WHOSE program are you following?
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby orhunter » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:54 am

There are two thing I think can contribute to hard mouth. It's too late now to consider for dogs this far down the road but it may help others who read this with their new pups. Squeaky toys and bird wings. Should I ever get another pup, it will never see either of these.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:08 pm

orhunter wrote:There are two thing I think can contribute to hard mouth. It's too late now to consider for dogs this far down the road but it may help others who read this with their new pups. Squeaky toys and bird wings. Should I ever get another pup, it will never see either of these.


X100. Nothing worse than a squeaky toy. :evil: :evil:
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:35 pm

Gonehunting, I am not reading any book or looking at any DVD, Been training dog since 1965, Had DD's since 1980.
This is the 3rd DD out of god noes how many that was hard mouth.
50 objects fetched @ 50 yards is what I have always shot for, I will try 6 @ 20 and see how it works.
I train my dogs to heel to take a line to fetch, when they return with the object, they sit facing me and hold until I say give.
I hope it is like you say .
Thanks everyone for all of the advise. Forrest
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:00 pm

orhunter wrote:There are two thing I think can contribute to hard mouth. It's too late now to consider for dogs this far down the road but it may help others who read this with their new pups. Squeaky toys and bird wings. Should I ever get another pup, it will never see either of these.


is that similar to fowl mouth? My wife just took away all my toys?
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:16 pm

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Gonehunting, I am not reading any book or looking at any DVD, Been training dog since 1965, Had DD's since 1980.
This is the 3rd DD out of god noes how many that was hard mouth.
50 objects fetched @ 50 yards is what I have always shot for, I will try 6 @ 20 and see how it works.
I train my dogs to heel to take a line to fetch, when they return with the object, they sit facing me and hold until I say give.
I hope it is like you say .
Thanks everyone for all of the advise. Forrest


I assume then that if you have been training dog's that long you are using the program developed by Morgan, Wolters, Carr and others, a good solid program.

Force fetch is not about repetition. No retriever trainer does 50 reps. No one. A dog is finished with FF when you can drop a bumper anytime anywhere and he DIVES for the ground to pick it up. That's what you look for in FF, a nearly panicked response to an accidentally dropped bumper, even if tha bumper has been knocked out of his mouth. More pressure and less reps produces a happier dog.

If you haven't been doing it, an occasional treat speeds FF along and creates a happier, more willing dog.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:40 am

Squeaky toy might be the problem, when one of my daughters comes to visit she brings Gus a squeaky toy. No more squeaky toys.
The only treat Gus has ever gotten for doing a command is a piece of deer meat after doing a artificial blood trail. will try with force fetch.
Just finished Bob Farris new book , Good read. Forrest
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby JONOV » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:51 am

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Squeaky toy might be the problem, when one of my daughters comes to visit she brings Gus a squeaky toy. No more squeaky toys.
The only treat Gus has ever gotten for doing a command is a piece of deer meat after doing a artificial blood trail. will try with force fetch.
Just finished Bob Farris new book , Good read. Forrest

Just run a knitting needle through the squeaker.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:38 am

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Squeaky toy might be the problem, when one of my daughters comes to visit she brings Gus a squeaky toy. No more squeaky toys.
The only treat Gus has ever gotten for doing a command is a piece of deer meat after doing a artificial blood trail. will try with force fetch.
Just finished Bob Farris new book , Good read. Forrest


So, one month into FF you gave your dog some squeaky toys and that caused hard mouth? And now that you created a hard mouth problem you're going to give the dog deer meat while doing FF? That ought to be interesting.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby crackerd » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:07 am

orhunter wrote:There are two thing I think can contribute to hard mouth. It's too late now to consider for dogs this far down the road but it may help others who read this with their new pups. Squeaky toys and bird wings. Should I ever get another pup, it will never see either of these.


Squeaky toys maybe, Harvey, but the right wing and the right aged pup (9 weeks or so)

100_2479.jpg


and it ain't contributing to hardmouth. But is contributing to pup's having fun carrying around something in their mouth that's "got game" all over it.

MG
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby orhunter » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:07 pm

Crackered: It does depend on how the pup reacts to them. ....and maybe the size of the wing? I used Chukar wings because I had a good supply and right away the pup learned things are great to chew on. She'd point, then go in for the kill/snack. I really think squeaky toys are far worse than wings. She learned to squeeze birds till the squeaked no matter how much it took.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:05 pm

Forest, i can't read what is happening through the internet, but based on your post, my best guess is what you are perceiving as hard mouth, is your dogs reaction to your FF program. If that is the case, some adjustment on your part is called for. I read back through your posts and the dog handling birds fine before is what leads me there. A portion of my background training bird dogs is with retrievers that thrived on repetition and handle the pressure associated with FF better than the versatiles I have been around. These retrievers were trained to a very high standard and mentally tough, resilient dogs. FF sessions were capped at 10 minutes a day. Even when forcing to pile and doing ladders to teach lining we never approached anything close to 50 retrieves. My simple advice would be short sessions. No birds till FF is complete. After FF, isolate and simplify bird handling using frozen birds and what the dog learned in FF, in short sessions till the attitude bounces back. Crushing birds just like breaking on shot, if it becomes habitual, is self rewarding to the dog and feeds itself. Hence my recommendation of frozen birds to immediately put a stop to it till you sort things out. If you are not careful, going too far with over ambitious training, or putting too much pressure on the dog may eventually manifest in blinking birds on the retrieve and for certain a lack of style. My post is not meant as criticism but to maybe get you thinking about ways you might alter what you are doing to help your dog succeed.
Willie

Edited to add: one last thought Forest. Rather than an arbitrary number of retrieves, momentum is what tells me when the process is complete.
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Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby orhunter » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Willie T.

Like your comment on momentum. Read the dog.
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