Hard mouth Pup

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby orhunter » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:33 am

I just quit shooting quail. Got tired of dragging them out of the dog's throat.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7632
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:05 am

orhunter wrote:I just quit shooting quail. Got tired of dragging them out of the dog's throat.


Oughta try Woodcock.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby huntindog1 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:37 am

I had a young dog that I thought was going to be hard mouth, turns out I think it was really just over excitement
in the beginning of using real birds. After going thru a dozen quail and 8 chukkars the over excitement calmed down
and the pup just naturally came into its own, The dog is fine now.
huntindog1
Started
Started
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:30 am
Location: Canada

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:07 pm

You're thinking that the FF process is what changed the dog's behavior? If so, I'm not sure taking the dog to a pro will get you anywhere since they pretty much do what you've already done. Guess I would immediately stop the FF process. Something in it is creating compulsion and the dog is reacting - and you don't know why, and unless you know why I'd opine that you leave the process, sit back, and re-evaluate.

In place of what you're doing I would offer up the idea of rewarding the dog for what you want instead of having the dog learn something by avoiding pain. This is a fundamental difference between PR and aversive teaching of FF. Perhaps, if you make retrieving fun again (and avoid birds for a very long time) the issue might fade. I say "fade" because, since you don't know exactly what caused the problem, just switching to frozen birds and other means might only reinforce it.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:22 pm

I rewatched the CD Hard Mouth in the Perfect Retrieve set just now. Similarity in it to Willie Ts and AlaskaMag's comments and shades of Booger's PR group in terms of a crisp Here and Heel to keep the dog focused on obeying commands while moving. Working with a hard mouthed GSP in the video and they have success with that dog. Worth watching I think.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:23 pm

Drathaar 1108,
When I am force fetching a dog I withhold all retrieves until the dog is FF'd. Resist the urge to test and instead teach. It is a case of less is more. During FF you are changing the rules that pertain to retrieving. Until the dog has the new rules down pat, retrieves confuse the issue and in turn can sometimes create a bit of a battle to implement what you are teaching. FF and get it right. Then implement and move on with the new tools.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:32 pm

These are the keys to a hard mouth dog: Perfect obedience. Sit to deliver. No head movement. Head up looking at you at all times during delivery. Speed of return. Never, ever, pull a bird from the dog. Make the dog, eyes up looking at you, open his mouth then turn his head to the side and release the bird. NEVER PULL THE BIRD FROM HIS MOUTH.

Control of the jaws is of prime importance and this is where FF can NOT be ignored.

At least this one isn't a gobbler. I've had them stop on the way in and start eating. The closer I got, the faster they ate. Most people have NO IDEA of the work it takes to control a CONFIRMED hard mouth dog. Nor have most people even seen one.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:05 pm

GH, you know of what you speak! Does it look like this?
(Tap to enlarge)
IMG_2183.PNG

I think my dog would be at home hunting for you...
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby booger » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:22 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:At least this one isn't a gobbler. I've had them stop on the way in and start eating. The closer I got, the faster they ate. Most people have NO IDEA of the work it takes to control a CONFIRMED hard mouth dog. Nor have most people even seen one.


We had one dog in our PR group that would eat the heads off the birds damn near instantly. It was crazy. After moving on to pheasants she'd take a nice chunk out of the breasts super fast also. We did a version of the magic brush pile and that dog would bark at the launched bird for a good 20-30 seconds, I'm not sure I ever saw that dog get better at either problem. The owner had a job with a trainer for a while and I think she wanted to stick with PR. She had a lot more patience than I do, but a lot more training experience also.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:30 pm

Drahthaar1108 wrote:I have a DD pup ,he will be 8 months old 4/1/18
I am in the 4th week of force fetch, he is soft mouth on bumpers , PVC pipe, wooden dowel , BUT a fresh quail he is very hard mouth, all of a sudden, a month ago he was soft mouth on all birds.Forrest


I'm curious to know when exactly does the hard mouth happen (on a ten yard retrieve or when it was just handed the bird, or on commanded to fetch off the floor, or ...) and also just what does "in the 4th week of FF" mean? Half way through or almost done or ..?

Had the dog had previous retrieving experience with quail before FF and, if so, did it retrieve quail that were shot? It doesn't take much of a chomp to crush a quail so just thinking more info would be helpful.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:08 pm

Willie T wrote:GH, you know of what you speak! Does it look like this?
(Tap to enlarge)
IMG_2183.PNG

I think my dog would be at home hunting for you...


That is exactly how it looks!
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:05 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
Drahthaar1108 wrote:I have a DD pup ,he will be 8 months old 4/1/18
I am in the 4th week of force fetch, he is soft mouth on bumpers , PVC pipe, wooden dowel , BUT a fresh quail he is very hard mouth, all of a sudden, a month ago he was soft mouth on all birds.Forrest


I'm curious to know when exactly does the hard mouth happen (on a ten yard retrieve or when it was just handed the bird, or on commanded to fetch off the floor, or ...) and also just what does "in the 4th week of FF" mean? Half way through or almost done or ..?

Had the dog had previous retrieving experience with quail before FF and, if so, did it retrieve quail that were shot? It doesn't take much of a chomp to crush a quail so just thinking more info would be helpful.

Bruce, the hard mouth retrieve is at 45' , the pup is on a short lease and choke collar on a rope tied in between 2 trees, I just started using a few birds instead of bumpers. He is not hard mouth on the ducks.
As far as the 4th week of FF your guess is as good as mine about how much longer it will take, I fill like he will be finished when he will do 50 yard retrieves of 50 objects.
Yes I shot birds over him this winter and he retrieved them with a soft mouth. Forrest
Drahthaar1108
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Bruce, the hard mouth retrieve is at 45' , the pup is on a short lease and choke collar on a rope tied in between 2 trees, I just started using a few birds instead of bumpers. He is not hard mouth on the ducks.
As far as the 4th week of FF your guess is as good as mine about how much longer it will take, I fill like he will be finished when he will do 50 yard retrieves of 50 objects.
Yes I shot birds over him this winter and he retrieved them with a soft mouth. Forrest


If I wanted to make a dog hard mouthed, that's how I'd do it. Whose program are you following? With that tid bit, sounds like resentment, not hard mouth and rightfully so.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:24 pm

Thanks Forrest. I think you're smart to ask for help and are thinking it through. I also think aversive training techniques can get you into trouble so I guess I'm staying with my previous advice. I'm not saying so because I've been there, rather just my general thoughts about dog training. We'll be interested in what you do and how it turns out. Good luck!
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:28 pm

Gonehunting, not sure what you mean, birds are a different object to retrieve , just introducing birds along with bumpers dowels ECT.
Drahthaar1108
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests