Pointing

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

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Re: Pointing

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:04 pm

JONOV, Orhunter,

Spot on...

My take is that newbies and breeders are so consumed with scores that they place training before hunting...

I did, then I had a revelation (listened to my wife). What a difference!

Takes wild birds to train a bird dog...

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Re: Pointing

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:13 pm

Stretch, I always hunt my puppies young, although they have all been older than 4 months of age when the wild bird seasons opened. The benefits far outweigh any perceived downsides and I find it very easy to ignore those that say otherwise. I have had some very nice dogs and their genetics and what they learned hunting was always key in that.

Working my puppies on pigeons starting around 3 months of age using natural setups and silent approaches has developed strong search, point, marking and retrieving before we actually hunted wild birds. I have never had a puppy that was not interested in searching for and pointing pigeons, but I guess it might happen at some point in the future. Pigeons fly much stronger and higher than the average pen raised quail or chukar and that is another reason I favor using them. Once the pup is reliable in pointing and holding point, then and only then, do I go to some quail and chukars. Vdogs catching pen raised birds at an early age can make for some real steadiness challenges is my experience, and pen raised quail, chukars and pheasants are infamous for that. They will sabotage your training at every chance, so I avoid them until my pup has shown enough steadiness reliability to make them a good risk.

I also favor a dog being steady to wing while hunting, which keeps it safely out of the line of fire. But like my dogs to self release to retrieve any birds that are falling when upland bird hunting. The dog is safe, marks well but gets to the fall faster is how I see it. I will ask the dog to be steady to shot and fall however when hunting waterfowl as cripples are best shot before the dog is sent where and when they can be.

However, it is so easy to train a dog to be completely steady to WSF while undertaking its initial steadiness training that I do that and then let the dog backslide to steady to wing only when hunting. If and when I ever want to run the dog in a hunt test I can easily brush it back up to the WSF standard having taught it initially. So something to consider when you undertake your steadiness training.
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Re: Pointing

Postby JONOV » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:27 pm

orhunter wrote:JONOV:

"till it's pretty near finished." Isn't that the truth. They'll never be close to finished without lots of real hunting experience. Finished takes two or three years. Grrrrrr......

Stretch:

"influence." The birds are what influences the dog. Time in the field is experience. This combination is what sets up a dog for training, not the other way around.

If you want to get frustrated, worry about how other people hunt or train their dog. Or, talk about training vs hunting. Or how serious they are about their training. Or shooting the birds they bought regardless of the dog's level of work.

I feel similarly to you on the subject matter. But there are people with some pretty awesome dogs that do it differently.
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Re: Pointing

Postby orhunter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:35 pm

When birds are first introduced in training, it should be controlled in such a manner that the bird contact is through the handler/trainer. Kneel down and get pup at your side and introduce bird by hand. Let pup sniff and hold the bird in its mouth, not letting the pup crunch down or chew. A few of these sessions will tell the pup what we hunt and will help the pup distinguish those birds from those we don't hunt. After this formal introduction, I don't want a pup to have a bird in its mouth that isn't shot or in fetch training. Fetch training is always done with a shot once we go to the field even if dead birds are used. You are probably well past this right now but put it away for future reference.
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Re: Pointing

Postby orhunter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:38 pm

"People with some pretty awesome dogs who do it differently." For sure. More than one way to skin a cat.
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Re: Pointing

Postby Densa44 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:16 pm

Water. If the test is in June make sure has has been in the water a lot! It would be very sad if he fails the water test and so unnecessary.

The running pheasant is a problem for the one dog man. I'm not sure the best way to solve it. I hunt with 3 or 4 dogs and the birds will stop when he sees one dog in front of him. The other dogs trailing him then stop too.

With the way I train stop means forever. Your dog will have no problem running down a cripple. About 75% of the birds I shoot are cripples and the dogs get every one.

Keep up the work you will be amazed at how good you and your dog will be by fall.
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Re: Pointing

Postby Stretch » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:57 pm

I guess I need to find some pigeons here in the next month and start messing with a few of them. As far as the water goes I’ve been doing water retrieving stuff for about two weeks and now have him jumping off a dock. That being said I know im going to have a lot of ?s when waterfowl season opens up beings I’m a rookie and not going to pretend like I know a damn thing about training a dog for it. Hopefully I can set back and Barrett makes me look like a pro trainer. Lmao
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Re: Pointing

Postby orhunter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:22 pm

I think you're better than you think you are. Even if it's accidental.

Where are you testing?
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Re: Pointing

Postby Stretch » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:02 pm

Searsboro, Iowa Hawkeye chapter.
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Re: Pointing

Postby Stretch » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:37 pm

I don’t have a bird launcher. Do I need to quit being a Jack Benny and buy one, or is there another way that is just as successful.
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Re: Pointing

Postby blue04 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:59 pm

JONOV wrote:Is that the problem though? I'm probably demonstrating my ignorance here, but I thought de-chasing was for seen birds. Meaning, in the broader discussion of steadiness, and borrowing the NAVHDA UT test criteria, "Steady to flush, wing, shot, and fall," that de-chasing was mostly specific to "Steady to wing."

Pheasants, especially as they get older and wiser, run and run and run and run. Even a 100% steady dog points unproductively, relocated, unproductive, relocate, if he hasn't learned to handle running birds.

Its why a lot of guys use flushing dogs for Pheasants.

Its hard to say if the dog is bumping birds, or the birds are flushing wild.


The desire to chase a flying bird is what's being brought under control during dechasing. Dogs that love to chase will bump birds because they've learned that bumping provides a fun flying thing to chase. They use busting birds as a way to feed their desire to chase. If you remove the desire to chase, they won't be motivated to bump the birds (at least that's the theory).
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Re: Pointing

Postby orhunter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:59 pm

Stretch:

Will be driving through your state via Missouri to Wisconsin in May. Ya feel like having a visitor from Orygun?
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Re: Pointing

Postby Stretch » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:15 pm

Orhunter
Hell yes!! Will have beer on ice when you get here.
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Re: Pointing

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:48 am

Opinions on how to bring puppies along vary from do nothing but get them into wild birds, to do alot with pen raised birds.

I do both, early and often, but I use pigeons. I have posted enough about it elsewhere and am not going to repeat here.

But here are some photos of my not yet 4 month old pup, pointing and then retrieving a fresh shot pigeon. It was done in silence in natural cover. Done right there is nothing but upside to it.

Pointing the pigeon.

Image

Retrieving the pigeon just flushed and shot off his point.

Image

Swinging by the pond for a water retrieve with the same fresh shot bird moments later.

Image

And here we are training for the UT last summer. Working a pigeon in natural cover with me saying nothing. This dog has never been check corded or whoa'd into a point. See how far off the bird Spud locks into point. Cover and distance prevented him from getting a mark on the shot bird, but he comes up with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxT_jBKhm8E
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Re: Pointing

Postby mastercaster » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:22 pm

Great photos, great video! What I saw there is my eventual goal with my one year old griff.
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