The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby TruAblePup » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:53 pm

crackerd wrote:
TruAblePup wrote:
...you are making a leap to suggest that FF is the reason for the crispness. It is a verifiable fact that you do NOT need to FF in order to have reliable retriever. Many trainers have titled champions who have been proven to work under distraction and stress every single time.


Are you that much of a naïf or are you "verifying" all this on another planet?

MG


Here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... rB-DeJFlV4

Here:

https://www.facebook.com/LoganHausKenne ... 035470964/

All of this happened on planet earth.

I am not saying that it always the best tool to use. But it CAN work reliably, IF done well, with the right dog.
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:18 pm

crackerd wrote:TP, funny you mention Leerburg - I've said this before just not here that Michael Ellis told a friend of mine with working GSPs a few years back, "If you want to see training innovation, catch up to retriever trainers and how they use the e-collar." "Trust" (in and by dogs) and magic postulations ain't got nothing to do with it. Did you read the article at the link I posted above for my friend Professor Jere? An array of "heritage sports" are invoked, but hunting (by way of gundog training) isn't one of them. Compared to the actual training imparted to our working retrievers, versatile breeds and certain retrieving spaniels, obedience, herding, agility, etc. is like shooting fish in a kettle...

MG


Michael Ellis is a damned genius. He uses aversives and readily admits he does. He also does A LOT of foundation work with PR.

If you actually know the man, I would be buying him lunch all the time to pick his brain.
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby TruAblePup » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:20 pm

AlaskaMagnum wrote:
crackerd wrote:TP, funny you mention Leerburg - I've said this before just not here that Michael Ellis told a friend of mine with working GSPs a few years back, "If you want to see training innovation, catch up to retriever trainers and how they use the e-collar." "Trust" (in and by dogs) and magic postulations ain't got nothing to do with it. Did you read the article at the link I posted above for my friend Professor Jere? An array of "heritage sports" are invoked, but hunting (by way of gundog training) isn't one of them. Compared to the actual training imparted to our working retrievers, versatile breeds and certain retrieving spaniels, obedience, herding, agility, etc. is like shooting fish in a kettle...

MG


Michael Ellis is a damned genius. He uses aversives and readily admits he does. He also does A LOT of foundation work with PR.

If you actually know the man, I would be buying him lunch all the time to pick his brain.


Agreed! X100
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby crackerd » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:53 pm

Comprehension check, I wouldn't know Michael Ellis from a garden trellis, only his reputation that prompted my friend to call on him for training advice with the e-collar, which I noted above. NOT that I know him. Though there was a buzz a few years ago that he was thinking about expanding his training realm and had bought a couple of powerfully-pedigreed Lab pups with the aim of making Field Champions of them. Proved unfounded rumor, but even if he had accomplished the feat, it wouldn't have been unprecedented by someone who comes from another canine discipline. Have you ever heard of Connie Cleveland?

I'm thinking TP or TruAble here may hail from elsewhere (not necessarily from another planet) by his (or her) musings about making up Field Champions without force fetch and by implied dissociation with the e-collar. Moreover, in asking about specifics from the "Higgins Method" other than "trust" in training retrievers. Training them for what, TP? A "reliable retrieve" is just the start in our world, it's more about training them up to their capabilities, especially with regards to water, and the complexities of retrieving from it, and "memory" they must develop for multiple marks in swimming hundreds of yards for each, and, oh, yeah, the cooperation engendered by that training for blind retrieves on land and water that sets them apart from what other "trusting" or "reliable" methodologies you might cite that doesn't have force fetch at their crux.

There's also lots of water, figuratively and literally, between those "many champions" you note as having been made up without either of the aforementioned aversive applications, and the FCs developed by our own "hands-on" approach. You could say it makes all the difference in the world...

MG
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby PL_Guy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:16 pm

crackerd wrote:...

Lot of free "excoriation" here for some folks, Jere - and very deserved excoriation...: https://karmaperformance.weebly.com/when-did-balance-become-a-dirty-word.html

MG


Thanks for that reference, Michael. I passed it on to my eldest daughter who is now working with a GSP pup.

Jere
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:34 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
RDJ wrote: I know Michael Ellis' methods teach the dog to turn off pressure (negative reinforcement) as a tool.


The Ellis method has a huge foundation with positive reinforcement and marker training and then introduce pressure through leash pressure. Only then does he do collar.

It's a very small part of his overall method.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HDZqVpGVy60
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby hicntry » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:15 pm

Here we go with another per perspective. Pro trainers like gonehunting, crackered, kiger etc, work with dogs that have already been screwed up because of the way the owners have handled them. They simply have no grasp on the difference on how dogs are that have been bred and handled by the few that actually have a clue. I don't know how Brad handles dogs, but, I would say that he has raised the dogs that have implicit trust in him. Just a wild guess because I have never even watched one of his videos.but, to instill the trust he has with the dogs is not working with dogs others have already instilled mistrust. I may be wrong and it won't be the first time. That being said, dog that have been handled right from the beginning are a whole different ball game than dogs that pro trainers get to handle. Past that, I have know idea how Michael Ellis got into the conversation of working dogs with birds of prey.
Last edited by hicntry on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby PL_Guy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:18 pm

crackerd wrote:
TruAblePup wrote:
...you are making a leap to suggest that FF is the reason for the crispness. It is a verifiable fact that you do NOT need to FF in order to have reliable retriever. Many trainers have titled champions who have been proven to work under distraction and stress every single time.


Are you that much of a naïf or are you "verifying" all this on another planet?

MG



After watching some of the offered videos I'm thinking we have an apples vs oranges discussion going here.

How about a little counterpoint. Without spending a lot of time I found these videos exemplary of what competitive retriever trainers here in the USA aim for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pil4xr7h8Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLu6V5nKCXY

I'm sure there are better ones but didn't take the time to find.

Jere
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So much to learn, So little time!
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby PL_Guy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:20 pm

hicntry wrote:Here we go with another per perspective. Pro trainers like gonehunting, crackered, kiger etc, work with dogs that have already been screwed up because of the way the owners have handled them. They simply have no grasp on the difference on how dogs are that have been bred and handled by the few that actually have a clue. I don't know how Brad handles dogs, but, I would say that he has raised the dogs that have implicit trust in him. Just a wild guess because I have never even watched one of his videos.but, to instill the trust he has with the dogs is not working with dogs others have already instilled mistrust. I may be wrong and it won't be the first time. That being said, dog that have been handled right from the beginning are a whole different ball game than dogs that pro trainers get to handle.


You fell of the edge of the flat earth with that one!!!!

Jere
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby hicntry » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:25 pm

Maybe....maybe not
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:54 pm

Hicountry,

I think the issue is you have no idea what a eel trained retriever is???

Tueablepup,
cute puppy videos, where are the videos of retriever champions?
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:01 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pil4xr7h8Y

Seven whistles on the blind ... and it took forever! Had the handler steered the dog per my PR training (https://youtu.be/B433iME85F4) the dog would have completed the blind quickly and had a fresher view of the marks. Someday they'll learn.
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby hicntry » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:18 pm

So...what happened to falconry for gun dogs??? AND, what trust has to do with training??
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby crackerd » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:49 am

PL_Guy wrote:
hicntry wrote:Here we go with another per perspective. Pro trainers like gonehunting, crackered, kiger etc, work with dogs that have already been screwed up because of the way the owners have handled them. They simply have no grasp on the difference on how dogs are that have been bred and handled by the few that actually have a clue. I don't know how Brad handles dogs, but, I would say that he has raised the dogs that have implicit trust in him. Just a wild guess because I have never even watched one of his videos.but, to instill the trust he has with the dogs is not working with dogs others have already instilled mistrust. I may be wrong and it won't be the first time. That being said, dog that have been handled right from the beginning are a whole different ball game than dogs that pro trainers get to handle.


You fell of the edge of the flat earth with that one!!!!


Yeah, and while wearing lead chest waders to help him out.

Kiger's no pro, nor am I, and GH is retired and trains his own dogs only now.

Bruce, about those seven whistles on a blind - I know you're familiar with HRC. Only a few years did HRC even put in their rulebook that a dog (and handler) must "challenge the blind." In other words, they had (and to an extent still have) wide latitude - emphasis on "wide" - for running a blind. Not so with the other retriever orgs., and compounded for precision in field trials by "hazards" that the "team" (your dog and you) have to negotiate. Last fall, my 10-year-old British Lab trained the USA way two-whistled a 300-yard water blind where both whistles were for getting her out of the water and then back in and away from a very exciting "poison bird." This was in an amateur stake and was the proudest I've ever been of a dog in my competitive life. And to bring this thread back to Professor 'Iggins methodology (or a 'orse of a different color) that line on blinds is analogous to the Harris hawk taking down a rabbit by "tree hawking" - straight and "to the point." Difference being that hawk's working for his supper 'cause you the falconer have made him very hungry, while the dog, the retriever, is working with you, because you've made her very cooperative (and eager to please) by the training and care you've imparted.

MG
Last edited by crackerd on Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Higgins Method, Falconry for Gun Dogs

Postby PL_Guy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:56 am

hicntry wrote:Maybe....maybe not



Just so you can be explicit I'll ask So you think HRCHs, FCs, NAFCs and NFC retrievers are produced by pro trainers starting with "screwed up" puppies?

Jere
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