West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

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West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:25 am

Will be getting a pup in the next few months and would like to complete the NAVHDA NA test some time in the future. Plan to use Maurice Lindley West method training . Would this style of training interfere with the NAVHDA natural ability test or should i wait after NA test to train west method ? I am new to pointer training so please excuse my inexperience i also joined NAVHDA group without a dog LOL.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby orhunter » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:58 am

Depends on the age of the pup at test time.

Training for NA is pretty simple. The three things the pup must do are track, go in the water with enthusiasm and point. We don't train a dog to point, it's all natural, but pup must be put into situations where it can point and this involves birds. Wild birds are best but depending on the pups age at test time, wild birds may not be available so artificial opportunities must be utilized. Other things to work on are range, independence, use of nose, search, cooperation etc. but all this usually takes care of its self during basic exposure in the field. They do need a ton of exposure. I like to use actual hunting as much as anything to accomplish the exposure part but non-hunting exposure before hunting is just as necessary. Exposure begins as soon as the pup comes home from the breeder.

Other things to work on around the home and neighborhood are come, fetch, (beginning around 11 weeks) whoa/stay (they mean the same thing) general leash manners.

Not familiar with the training method you mentioned so can't comment. Training for NA is pretty limited so don't try to do too much too soon. The pup doesn't need to be steady on birds but if the pup is older at test time or has gone through a hunting season, it probably should be. Give the pup the freedom to develop what it was born with, don't force it at too young of age. A good hunting dog takes time.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:57 am

orhunter Thanks
I will be getting a 8 week old so guess will do NA test first .Work on scenting live birds ,socialize, explore hunting areas, introduce all types of water , and Tracking birds . No rush I'm going to enjoy my time with my puppy.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby orhunter » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:44 pm

CZ: "will do NA test first." Do you mean prior to hunting?

"No Rush. I'm going to enjoy my time with my puppy." That's the right attitude. Let the pup develop at its own pace and trust it was born with the right stuff. It's your job to create opportunity and not much more.

When you start working with birds, you'll want to avoid sight pointing. All pups will do this but a pointing dog's world is through its nose, not its eyes like a Labrador. The pups first exposure to bird scent is whatever you two encounter during exposure to the outside world. When its time to get serious, around two months before the test if you're testing this coming fall, a more structured training sequence is in order. Depending on your pups natural development during exposure will indicate at what stage the formal training should begin. Get good at reading your pup and understand why it does what it does. If you see something you don't particularly like in your pups reaction to birds, it may not be the dog's fault. Try to look at everything through the dog's nose, not the trainer's eyes. Wind direction, cover, etc., all influence scent. Try to set the dog up to take advantage of the conditions during exposure and formal training.

I like CZ's too, have a couple myself. A .22LR and a .22 Hornet. They make some good stuff.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:05 pm

CZ,
Congrats on your pup!1 And good luck.

But just so those following along are clear. Labradors and retrievers in general are as reliant on their noses for hunting as any Vdog. We do train them to trust their eyes on marked retrieves because we can improve marking through training. Just as a vdog should do with marks also.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:05 pm

CZ,
Congrats on your pup!1 And good luck.

But just so those following along are clear. Labradors and retrievers in general are as reliant on their noses for hunting as any Vdog. We do train them to trust their eyes on marked retrieves because we can improve marking through training. Just as a vdog should do with marks also.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:54 pm

Do not have pup yet should be getting in the fall. Maybe getting ahead of myself but very excited . Getting a plan together( Books Training with mo) , Dave Walker DVDs Meat on the Table . Decided on the West/Gibbons/Maurice Lindley Method. Looked at Perect Start/Finish need mucho Birds and a partner all the time but a load of info .
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:59 pm

orhunter wrote:CZ: "will do NA test first." Do you mean prior to hunting?

I like CZ's too, have a couple myself. A .22LR and a .22 Hornet. They make some good stuff.


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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby orhunter » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:53 pm

There's no such thing as getting ahead of yourself. You do need to be careful about getting ahead of the pup.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:36 am

It's great that you go to training days prior to getting a pup, it allows you to really watch what is going on without the distraction having your own pup with you. Watch as many dogs and handlers as you can and get a feel for who's dog runs like you'd like see your run.

Every NAVHDA chapter is different, read "Training with Mo" and perhaps after, buy the video (IMHO the video is worthless without the book). What you may find is your (Mo's) idea on how to train a dog is different than the training cadre at your chapter. Some NAVHDA folk seemingly treat field work as an obedience function- heavy on correction prior to flush, I call it "scared steady". That is the opposite of the G-W method. It works for some dogs, but, not for all. Be consistent with your pup. If you G-W for three weekends, then change methods on the fourth (NAVHDA), on the fifth you are starting over.

What breed are you getting? Best of luck.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:44 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:It's great that you go to training days prior to getting a pup, it allows you to really watch what is going on without the distraction having your own pup with you. Watch as many dogs and handlers as you can and get a feel for who's dog runs like you'd like see your run.

Every NAVHDA chapter is different, read "Training with Mo" and perhaps after, buy the video (IMHO the video is worthless without the book). What you may find is your (Mo's) idea on how to train a dog is different than the training cadre at your chapter. Some NAVHDA folk seemingly treat field work as an obedience function- heavy on correction prior to flush, I call it "scared steady". That is the opposite of the G-W method. It works for some dogs, but, not for all. Be consistent with your pup. If you G-W for three weekends, then change methods on the fourth (NAVHDA), on the fifth you are starting over.

What breed are you getting? Best of luck.



Urban Redneck
I agree with you 100% on difference with NAVHDA Training and West Method. I am getting a Pudelpointer and promised Breeder i would NA Test and i will. After that i will train using West/Gibson/mo Method . Do you have any idea where i can can find this DVD?
West/Gibbons 3 day seminar may 1, 2005 dvd's.
Any help would be appreciated .
Thanks CZ
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby orhunter » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:37 am

Since your dog is a Pudelpointer, you may as well start with Bob Farris' new book, tailored to the PP. You can order one on Amazon. I haven't read a lot of training books so don't know how it compares to all the others but I read this one last week and it's excellent.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby Doc E » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:57 am

Kiger2 wrote:But just so those following along are clear. Labradors and retrievers in general are as reliant on their noses for hunting as any Vdog. We do train them to trust their eyes on marked retrieves because we can improve marking through training. Just as a vdog should do with marks also.


Correct. Actually all dogs (regardless of breed) use their nose as their main view of the world.

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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:51 pm

orhunter wrote:Since your dog is a Pudelpointer, you may as well start with Bob Farris' new book, tailored to the PP. You can order one on Amazon. I haven't read a lot of training books so don't know how it compares to all the others but I read this one last week and it's excellent.



Book ordered already He's the King of PP
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:22 am

I want to commend you on actually doing it right, getting the book and all of the info you can then getting the pup. You should have it clear in your mind exactly what training program you will be using and how you will proceed. Good Luck!!
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