Back to Actual Training

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby LongHammer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:18 am

How do you have an argument whend everyone agrees with the end result? Stay tuned and let's find out!
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:07 pm

Long Hammer, Whats the end result we all agree on?

Doc, my question was specific. Thanks for answering.

Im certain this will become very educational! Thats why Im here, to help you and more importantly, THINK!!!!
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby Densa44 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:22 am

I agree with Doc that 150 yard blind would be very rare, but I've had a number of "sailers" that far and farther, I'm not always the shooter, BTW. The dog doesn't seem to have any problem with them at all. Hunters don't always know where the bird is, and the ones that the dogs have retrieved for me have all been cripples. Both ducks and pheasants.

I live on very open prairie and it is easy to train for long retrieves and "blinds" that is how I teach duck search. If you teach the dog to keep going, I don't think that the distance means very much to them. That's just my experience.
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:02 pm

My needs for waterfowling are: I want my dog to sit or lay quietly where I place it, mark birds when they fall, search for downed birds as long as I allow it to search, and the ability to send the dog in the right direction when it does not get a mark out to a 100 to maybe 150 yards. Armed with that we can recover as high a percentage of birds as anyone does if they are being honest, accurate and hunt a good bit. A few Geese will certainly sail out further than 150 yards but it is extremely seldom that line of sight would allow a dog to be handled at that distance, and I will use my legs or boat if needed to accompany the dog in our search to recover the bird in those instances.

To accomplish the above requires some basic training, exposure and then as much hunting experience as I can provide. The training allows the hunting to go much more smoothly at the outset, but the hunting is what really allows the dog to learn its craft is my experience.

I train the dog to sit and or lie quietly in its dog ground blind, marsh stand or beside me while I am sitting on a stool. I introduce retrieving through decoy spreads before we undertake actual hunts. I need the dog to load into whatever variety of boats we use and remain where I instruct it to remain, use dog ramps to enter and exit if hunting from a boat blind. For my layout boat I have a dog compartment behind me where I teach the dog to load and stay until sent to retrieve, making a special trip to water in the summer to train for that purpose. I use a lucky launcher 2 shoulder stock model to teach longer distance marking and steadiness, and dove hunts help hone the skill ahead of duck season. Live and dead ducks, pigeons, goose wings are used to teach search on land, water and marsh. Baseball drills are used to teach basic direction handling.
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby jlw034 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:27 pm

I'm with ya Doc. Seems like I train all summer to get things dialed in, then when the first ducks are circling the wheels fall off!

As I get a little bit more ingrained in the V-dog world, the duck search irks me more and more. Seems like guys spend 90% of their time training for something (duck search) that is useful 10% of the time while waterfowl hunting.

A little more steadiness and lining work would help, at the sacrifice of duck search training.
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:37 pm

jlw034 wrote:I'm with ya Doc. Seems like I train all summer to get things dialed in, then when the first ducks are circling the wheels fall off!

As I get a little bit more ingrained in the V-dog world, the duck search irks me more and more. Seems like guys spend 90% of their time training for something (duck search) that is useful 10% of the time while waterfowl hunting.

A little more steadiness and lining work would help, at the sacrifice of duck search training.


I agree that steadiness is critical... I like Hillman's "Traffic Cop" and think it works. I use a RetrieveRTrainer to reinforce.

As for the duck search, it's very useful in my area... public impounds. Have had several occasions where I've sent my pup into a puff of feathers for other hunting parties and 15-20 minutes later had her return with their duck.

The thing, I don't train for it... a good dog should pick it up in a couple lessons and really blossom after a season or two.

Bottom line... we're hunters so we should be training for what/how we hunt.

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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby jlw034 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:39 pm

3drahthaars wrote:
jlw034 wrote:I'm with ya Doc. Seems like I train all summer to get things dialed in, then when the first ducks are circling the wheels fall off!

As I get a little bit more ingrained in the V-dog world, the duck search irks me more and more. Seems like guys spend 90% of their time training for something (duck search) that is useful 10% of the time while waterfowl hunting.

A little more steadiness and lining work would help, at the sacrifice of duck search training.


I agree that steadiness is critical... I like Hillman's "Traffic Cop" and think it works. I use a RetrieveRTrainer to reinforce.

As for the duck search, it's very useful in my area... public impounds. Have had several occasions where I've sent my pup into a puff of feathers for other hunting parties and 15-20 minutes later had her return with their duck.

The thing, I don't train for it... a good dog should pick it up in a couple lessons and really blossom after a season or two.

Bottom line... we're hunters so we should be training for what/how we hunt.

3ds


That's a great bottom line.
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:58 am

A dog needs to be steady to be an asset vs a liability while hunting waterfowl over decoys and that requires training. The ability to send a dog in the direction of the fall is another necessary trained skill.

The degree to which someone values Duck Search or long range blind retrieve handling depends on how and where they hunt.

A dog willing to search independently out of sight of the handler in heavy cover is essential in the flooded smartweed and flooded corn on our public marshes.

The cover in both photos is flooded and the pools of open water are small. Approximately half or more of the ducks shot will fall into the tall flooded cover bordering the open pools of water, and a dog must be willing to search independently once it enters the cover or cripples will quickly escape. Equally important is sending the dog in the right direction at the start so that valuable time is not lost with the dog searching in the wrong direction. Marking is always the best as it provides the best information and motivation to the dog as to where to search for the downed bird, but training the dog to take a line at the start of the recovery effort is also essential. As is Duck Search once it enters the cover.

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Hunting an open prairie pothole lake - lining and handling on blind retrieves becomes a useful/necessary skill, which is mostly impossible in the public marshes.

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When I train and condition a dog for Duck Search I use obvious prominent pieces of cover on the opposite side of open water to set dead ducks during the early stages of training. I am teaching the dog to look across the water and focus on that clump of willows, clump of floating vegetation, mound and swim directly to it. And they will/do. I will send the dog multiple times in a row doing the same on other prominent features in the marsh. The dog takes a direct line to that feature and either finds a duck to retrieve or if it does not, the conditioning causes them to look for and search towards the next prominent feature. Having always found ducks at those features causes the dog to have great faith that persistence will pay off. The method teaches the dog to both take a line at the initial send and to search and expand once it arrives.
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:50 am

.

Really good post AG. Well said.

jlw034 wrote:A little more steadiness and lining work would help, at the sacrifice of duck search training.

Steadiness and lining do not have to be at the sacrifice of duck search training or search independence. Yes, telling the dog to sit and stay is taking away from the dog's natural instincts (of doing whatever it pleases) but it's a necessary part of having a well trained dog. Same for lining and handling - the dog is under your control and is expected to take your directions, which should be admired in a well trained retriever. If you've previously taught the "dead bird" command the dog will know that it's just been released it to hunt on it's own and it should do just as good a search as before - only this time the dog will be doing it in an area likely to find the bird and bring it to you. All things being equal, it's hard to argue that a dog that can't handle will do a better job of bringing game to the table.
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Re: Back to Actual Training

Postby J D Patrick » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:02 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:.

,,,,,the dog's natural instincts (of doing whatever it pleases) but it's a necessary part of having a well trained dog. ,,,,,,.



that made me smile - most succinct statement I have read on here! and accurate! love it
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