Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorite me

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Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorite me

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:39 pm

Ok. I am working on getting my dog ready for Utility. I am working on steadying my dog ip to wing shoot and fall. I am familiar with the Delmar Smith method. Interested what method everyone uses and why you like it.

I am not interested in listening to everyone argue why somebodies else's method sucks, like what happened on the recent FF thread. So you can tell me why your preferred system is great. Just don't tell me why the other guys system.sucks.

Thanks for everyone's input. I will have the help of my NAHVDA chapter as well as some personal help from some other folks who are trainers. I am just curious of everyone else's methods.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:53 pm

I followed the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs. Had hunted my dog through its first season only shooting when it held its point and let me flush but letting him break when the birds flew. After his first season I trained Whoa away from birds using PR, then overlayed ecollar and taught him compliance turned off the low level stimulation. I used a TT 550 and 2 range stimulation for the most part, low, medium or high depending on the dog's actions. Once he was complying well and stopping in the field to voice or whistle Whoa command, I moved to releasing bagged pigeons in front of him and enforced the Whoa command he already understood. Once he did that well, I moved to birds on the ground in plain view and enforced the Whoa command there. Then moved to pigeons in launchers letting the dog hunt for them and point them. I enforced the command as needed if he moved when I launched the bird. Then moved to shooting the bird and requiring him to hold until released to retrieve. Ran his UT and passed Prize I. Have since let him break to retrieve falling shot birds when hunting upland in this second season. Would be easy to get him steady to fall again if I wanted to run a hunt test, but have no plans to do so presently. Good luck with your training and test.

Couple of details I missed. I was using continuous stimulation. It started when I gave the Whoa command and stopped the moment he stopped and complied with the Whoa command. What I liked about the approach I used is the dog was taught the command with no pressure. Then taught how to turn off the low level stimulation by complying with the Whoa voice and or whistle command. Then the fully understood command was enforced in the presence of birds using pigeons first. I have used the approach on my last 3 GWPs and the dogs have remained upbeat with no loss of style or intensity around birds, which is critical to me. I took my time and made sure the dog fully understood each step before proceeding to the next.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:03 pm

Picky, picky. Go figure it out yourself or buy a book.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:31 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Picky, picky. Go figure it out yourself or buy a book.


Got a book.

Dont have to figure it out myself, but thanks anyway.

Just didn't want you and your two buddies looking like jackasses arguing like you did on the FF thread. You already accomplished that on this thread.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:34 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I followed the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs. Had hunted my dog through its first season only shooting when it held its point and let me flush but letting him break when the birds flew. After his first season I trained Whoa away from birds using PR, then overlayed ecollar and taught him compliance turned off the low level stimulation. I used a TT 550 and 2 range stimulation for the most part, low, medium or high depending on the dog's actions. Once he was complying well and stopping in the field to voice or whistle Whoa command, I moved to releasing bagged pigeons in front of him and enforced the Whoa command he already understood. Once he did that well, I moved to birds on the ground in plain view and enforced the Whoa command there. Then moved to pigeons in launchers letting the dog hunt for them and point them. I enforced the command as needed if he moved when I launched the bird. Then moved to shooting the bird and requiring him to hold until released to retrieve. Ran his UT and passed Prize I. Have since let him break to retrieve falling shot birds when hunting upland in this second season. Would be easy to get him steady to fall again if I wanted to run a hunt test, but have no plans to do so presently. Good luck with your training and test.

Couple of details I missed. I was using continuous stimulation. It started when I gave the Whoa command and stopped the moment he stopped and complied with the Whoa command. What I liked about the approach I used is the dog was taught the command with no pressure. Then taught how to turn off the low level stimulation by complying with the Whoa voice and or whistle command. Then the fully understood command was enforced in the presence of birds using pigeons first. I have used the approach on my last 3 GWPs and the dogs have remained upbeat with no loss of style or intensity around birds, which is critical to me. I took my time and made sure the dog fully understood each step before proceeding to the next.



Thanks average guy. Those are some good thoughts.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby carramrod » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:07 pm

I used PS/PF and it worked pretty good for me as well. Although, I've been releasing him to flush a lot more this season, and will probably revisit it in the off-season. He's been too close behind on some birds this year and I passed up some shots I could have taken had I not released him.

I will say too that I had it pretty easy on the steady part as he's naturally got a lot of point in him.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby J D Patrick » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:40 pm

Not my thread but good info - thanks folks
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:58 am

Had another thought to share. I always ask my dog to sit and put on his ecollar when I get him out of the kennel or crate. All of our hunting and training has an ecollar on the dog. I never ran my current dog without the ecollar until the day we ran his UT. My prior dog had figured out the ecollar and was perfect in training the day before his test, but less so the day of the test with the ecollar off. I have found it extremely easy for a dog to get collar wise and a strong willed dog may thumb their nose at you when the ecollar is off. Hence why I put the collar on at all times I am hunting or training the dog. It makes for alot less corrections.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Densa44 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:37 am

All the various methods work, and you have to pick one that suits both you and your dog. All dogs are a bit different. I like Rick Smith's whoa post and have used it on all my dogs. I support the lessons with an e-collar now and then.

When I say whoa that means now and forever. I never release the dog with a command, I go over and touch here. I never want her to self release. It is for the dog's safety. I don't want her accidentally shot by some excited hunter. We never lose any cripples.

If you want a UT 1 prize good for you. Work on the water and sight blinds. When you put your hand down, she knows exactly what is coming next and is keen to go. I always fumble the bird, she will grab it and give it back before it hits the ground. I never have her "present" the bird to me she stands beside me facing the water, then if she has to go again she is dialed in. I always send her at least 2x's and never use a gun, no shot, ever.

Tell us how you make out.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Densa44 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:38 am

All the various methods work, and you have to pick one that suits both you and your dog. All dogs are a bit different. I like Rick Smith's whoa post and have used it on all my dogs. I support the lessons with an e-collar now and then.

When I say whoa that means now and forever. I never release the dog with a command, I go over and touch her. I never want her to self release. It is for the dog's safety. I don't want her accidentally shot by some excited hunter. We never lose any cripples.

If you want a UT 1 prize good for you. Work on the water and sight blinds. When you put your hand down, she knows exactly what is coming next and is keen to go. I always fumble the bird, she will grab it and give it back before it hits the ground. I never have her "present" the bird to me she stands beside me facing the water, then if she has to go again she is dialed in. I always send her at least 2x's and never use a gun, no shot, ever.

Tell us how you make out.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Willie T » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:58 pm

I guess I'm the only one that doesn't use a book. Old school stuff we used before the e-collar caught on. I do overlay the collar but it is after we have already got it.

Step one is learning obedience.

Step two is obedience with escalating distractions till the dog learns to control itself in a state of high excitement.

Step three is linking "whoa" and or "sit" to retrieving using the command "mark". The obedience was taught with a pinch collar and it is used to steady the dog with known commands on retrieves. I start with bumpers and progress to dead birds, then to live flyers that are shot for the dog. A lead is clipped on the pinch collar with slack. If the dog tries to break, it corrects itself. In those instances I walk out and pick up the retrieve. When it is steady I unclip the lead and release the dog and it is rewarded with the retrieve.

Step four is adding the steady retrieve onto the back of the point. I like the dog holding his point nicely for the flush and the retrieve to be nice and steady till released, before I link them. This avoids the possibility of the dog blinking birds to avoid pressure or confusion that might be associated with pointed birds. I do this with the pinch collar for continuity. I let the dog hunt a planted bird with a pinch collar on. When he goes on point I clip the lead on and softly say mark. A helper flushes and shoots the bird. If the dog breaks it corrects itself. If it is steady, I unclip it and release it to its reward which is the retrieve. This has already been learned and usually goes pretty quick. I have already overlayed a hand signal for this to be used in the field to hunt in silence.

The point is a dance between bird and dog that 100% belongs to the dog. Steady to wing shot and fall is obedience. The handlers challenge is to intertwine the two without impeding the dog. I'm sure there are a lot better trainers on here than me that will chime in, but this is what I do.

This is a pic of me linking things up with Cricket this past summer. He is on point and oblivious to me. He is very young here. He was a precocious pup and we moved through some things rather quickly.
IMG_2044.JPG

Simplify and build with a purpose and learn to read your dog is what my grandpa taught me.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby PL_Guy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:28 pm

Meridiandave wrote:Ok. I am working on getting my dog ready for Utility. I am working on steadying my dog ip to wing shoot and fall. I am familiar with the Delmar Smith method. Interested what method everyone uses and why you like it.

I am not interested in listening to everyone argue why somebodies else's method sucks, like what happened on the recent FF thread. So you can tell me why your preferred system is great. Just don't tell me why the other guys system.sucks.

Thanks for everyone's input. I will have the help of my NAHVDA chapter as well as some personal help from some other folks who are trainers. I am just curious of everyone else's methods.


West Gibbons process. Search this forum - there are lots of posts.

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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Meridiandave » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:45 am

Thanks for the input. Keep them coming.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 pm

Chaining.

Really good obedience on Sit or whoa. Overlay with ecollar.

Whistle sit, overlay with ecollar.

With a dog thats good with bumpers I will throw a bumper when the dog is returning and have it sit, watch the fall, deliver to hand and then get sent to retrieve the second bumper.

Dechase. Hand throw pigeons to teach the dog they cant catch what flies off.

Then hand throw pigeons and hit with sit whistle. Dogs is already tending to stop because it cant catch, whistle reinforces, use collar as needed.

Then launchers with the dog brought in upwind, bird is launched, hit with sit whistle and enforce. Then multiple launches from one location with dog required to sit.

Then launched birds that are shot. Then multiple birds that are shot all requiring steadiness.

I know a lot of you guys dont like whistles, but they are easier to hear for the dog in a lot of cases and more commanding, can save the dogs life. And WAY better than screaming.

At the end you have a dog that can be corrected at any distance for breaking if it does and will have no bad impact on its habits around birds.
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Re: Steadying up a dog to wing shoot and fall...your favorit

Postby Fun Dog » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:04 pm

I also like the Perfect Start/finish DVD method. If you follow it step by step you will find when you get to the harder things like steady to wing/shot/fall, the dog is already there and it is easy. I also never go anyplace without the e-collar on. My dog goes crazy when the collar comes out as she knows it's time to go do something fun. I really believe that it will be hard for the dog to become collar wise if you never go anyplace without the collar. The only time my dog is worked without is during tests. I have a theory that it is not so much the dog becoming collar wise, but the handler reacting different when the collar is off. When the collar is on, you give a command and expect the dog to comply. When the collar is off, you give a command and hope the dog complies. With enough repetition the dog will do what you ask because it's the only thing the dog knows to do.
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