FF question

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Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:54 pm

Doc,
I will allow you your opinion. I mean you are entitled to think whatever you want.

Higgins is certainly entitled to promote his methods.

Im certainly entitled to call him out when he posts something that is not just a matter of opinion, but fact. He is making misleading statements that those who are watching here may take as truth. FF does not cause the dog to lose trust.

Do you believe that FF causes a loss of trust in the dog?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Was your post calling me a jerk actually a "jerk" thing to do????
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Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:51 pm

Does your question mark key stick ?
Do you realize how adolescent it makes you look ?
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Re: FF question

Postby PL_Guy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:52 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Doc,
... FF does not cause the dog to lose trust.



That sounds like opinion to me. If you adequately describe how to objectively measure "dog's trust" in the relationship between dog and trainer and provide convincing reproducible data, I might accept your opinion as fact.

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Re: FF question

Postby booger » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:23 pm

Higgins wrote:
gundog wrote:
Thanks Brad,I didnt have a chance to watch the videos. My dog had a halfa$$ natural retrieve to begin with, so I cleaned it up. I am VERY pleased with the results from the FF program, and have not experienced any loss of style or trust issues. To each their own.


Hello gundog,

I agree, to each their own. If you would, take a minute and watch the videos. I'd like to get your take on them. Might make for an interesting discussion.

https://youtu.be/wIhuFnts9Uw
https://youtu.be/_El738eNjl8


Thanks,

Higgins


Brad,

What I think is missing is the why and how. What stage is the dog in the videos at, what was the previous training? What happens when the dog fails to do what you'd like it to do? Failure and response to failure is a big part of learning and it seems like we're just getting the success part.
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Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:49 am

PL Guy,
As soon as Higgins " adequately describe how to objectively measure " that FF causes a loss in trust I will respond to your question. Seem Fair?
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Re: FF question

Postby PL_Guy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:53 am

Kiger2 wrote:PL Guy,
As soon as Higgins " adequately describe how to objectively measure " that FF causes a loss in trust I will respond to your question. Seem Fair?



Not really. You claimed he expressed opinion then stated what seemed to be, in your mind, fact. Accepting your assessment that Brad expressed opinion I asked that you justify your thinking with a description of an objective measurement process.

I doubt you can do so, but you're welcome to give it a try!

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Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:58 pm

PL Guy,
Higgins didn't say "in his opinion FF causes a loss of trust." He said it causes a lack of trust. A statement of fact. I didn't say he was entitled to his opinion, I said he was entitled to promote his methods. So whatever facts you want from me, you should ask from him also. But you won't, so Ill explain, not for you or doc, but for the many others here that came for some education.

But it is a good question in line with the topic.

While we may not perceive trust the same way a dog does, I think we can say certain behaviors clearly demonstrate what we can perceive to be "trust" or "mis trust". I worked int he fire service so got to meet lots of dogs in my career. These are not subjective observations. They are objective. Walk in a house and a dog cowers in the corner or goes to another room. Dogs barking at us. Some actually being aggressive towards us. All signs that the dogs fear us (lack of trust) or dont trust us in some manner. On the other hand, dogs that would run to us to get there pat on the head or bring their ball for us to through for them. Clearly they have trust that we weren't there to hurt them.

So lets move to FF. But lets also add Ecollar conditioning into it as its an important part of FF. In both we teach concepts and then use pressure to reinforce the learned behavior.Its easy for people like Higgins to believe that this could cause a dog to not trust us. But we can take an objective look at he dogs behavior to see that its not true. Ive never trained a dog that didn't run to get up on the table for their lessons. I give them a few sessions of getting used to the table then we start the process. I dont force them to the table, they go willingly. When I get their Ecollar out to go train they are eager to have it placed on their necks. These are not subjective observations, they are objective observations.

To save time Ill just break down one step of FF. When I start FF I hitch them to the post. They are apprehensive at first but when they realize Im not hurting them they relax. Ive gained some trust. When I hold their jaw with my gloved hand the resist, again they dont trust whats going on. But once they go through their check down list and realize all they have to do is hold their mouth still, they begin to relax again and they get very comfortable with it. Again Ive gained some trust. And on and on it goes. Every step we gain trust.

When we get done, they have a lot of trust in us. They dont look like they were FF.

Ive hunted with a substantial number of different dogs both FF and not FF. Ive seen tons of dogs in competition.Its pretty easy to objectively evaluate a dogs comfort and attitude in their work. When we send the dog 300 yards, initially in training they go because they have to. but as training progresses and they learn that there is always something there, they go because they trust us. They sit on a whistle at 300 yards (without the collar on) because they have learned to trust us that they will be rewarded for the proper response. Untold numbers of dogs have been through FF with no loss of "trust". If they didn't trust us they wouldn't work for us.

Now, we can lose trust in the dog if we dont apply the training correctly. But thats a training error not a program error.

That ends the dog education portion of this post. Now lest learn a bit about people education.

What Ive learned from this post is that calling someone a Jerk, is not a jerk thing to do. Using the question mark key for emphasis, is adolescent, but calling someone a jerk or a blowhard is not? Its really hard sometimes to keep up! Doc, Im ready for my next lesson!
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Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:05 pm

Kiger
Except for using a table, I really liked the rest of your post.
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Re: FF question

Postby PL_Guy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:14 pm

Kiger2, as you said - "it is a good question in line with the topic." I'll give you a + (a plus sign, not a+) for that effort also; but I wonder whether Dwight read the last part. :)

Brad is free to present his case too.

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Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:18 pm

Doc,
Doesn't the table illistrate a good point. I dont care whether you use it not, its not something that a dog would naturally want to get up on correct? Especially if we are going to "Force" them to do something. So the fact that the dogs will run and either A)jump up on it, or B) put there feet up on it before I get there, tells us something correct? I dont know where you do FF, but I suspect that your dogs probably want to go there for their lesson dont they???

And I really want to be clear and fair to Higgins. If I had someone that was dead set against using an ecollar on their dog. I would have no problem sending them to Higgins. I just dont believe what he sees is happening is what is happening. Make sense???? I dont believe what Higgins is doing would cause any harm to a dog.

There used to be a guy near Portland or that was a well respected ret trainer. Named Charleton. I trained with him a couple of times. He did not use the collar. He would walk out as far as needed and make his corrections by hand or the "Amish" method. He produced good results. Everyone should employ "Amish" methods in their training. But I dont think he produced better trained dogs in the long run. I did learn some very good lessons from him that were reinforced a few years later

PL Guy,
Im not sure I understand your grading method. When my kids went through High school, they were allowed to take their tests twice. I explained over and over the problems with that. First off , they now have to study for two tests. Second and more importantly, life would not give them retests.


Lastly, I would like to say I know that I dont always come off as the friendliest guy on the net. My goal is to help educate. Sometimes that requires a bit of sarcasm. I try not to ever call names because i believe you lose the argument once that happens. Sometimes I piss off the ret guys, sometimes the pointer guys. but i think if one were to peruse the various threads and look at the interest generated by the threads, the ones Im involved with generate a lot of interest. I believe Im helping people to think about what they are doing with their dogs, not just do it because they read it on the net.
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Re: FF question

Postby PL_Guy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:44 am

Kiger2 wrote:...

There used to be a guy near Portland or that was a well respected ret trainer. Named Charleton. I trained with him a couple of times. He did not use the collar. He would walk out as far as needed and make his corrections by hand or the "Amish" method. He produced good results. Everyone should employ "Amish" methods in their training. But I dont think he produced better trained dogs in the long run. I did learn some very good lessons from him that were reinforced a few years later

PL Guy,
Im not sure I understand your grading method. When my kids went through High school, they were allowed to take their tests twice. I explained over and over the problems with that. First off , they now have to study for two tests. Second and more importantly, life would not give them retests.


Lastly, I would like to say I know that I dont always come off as the friendliest guy on the net. My goal is to help educate. Sometimes that requires a bit of sarcasm. I try not to ever call names because i believe you lose the argument once that happens. Sometimes I piss off the ret guys, sometimes the pointer guys. but i think if one were to peruse the various threads and look at the interest generated by the threads, the ones Im involved with generate a lot of interest. I believe Im helping people to think about what they are doing with their dogs, not just do it because they read it on the net.


Kiger2, My understanding of "Amish" training methods has been they are actually pretty brutal though most on the 'net don't mean it that way for some reason. What is your take on that?

So, I gave you a "+" rather than a "-." Think of it as "Pass/Fail." There's no reason for me to dissect your post in any more detail. When I taught I had more detailed spread but that was imposed on me by the system of the institution I was employed by.

Admirable goal, for sure.

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Re: FF question

Postby ryanr » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:14 pm

Force fetch increases the trust and bond between dog and handler. If FF causes a loss of trust between dog and handler then it was done wrong.
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Re: FF question

Postby TruAblePup » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:18 pm

ryanr wrote:Force fetch increases the trust and bond between dog and handler. If FF causes a loss of trust between dog and handler then it was done wrong.



I have heard this said many times. But how do you get past the concept that with FF you are applying pain before the dog fully understands what is expected? Is that not inherently an avenue that leads to distrust? How are you doing FF in a manner that leads to greater trust?

My pup is 7 months and is naturally retrieving, but not to hand reliably and he chews a lot. I wrestle with this. I know pressure is needed in the process, but causing pain before I am 100% sure he understands what to do and HOW to do it, is an ethical dilemma for me.

My dog is going to be tested and must be reliable.

The Brits/Germans, as I understand it don't use FF. Are their dogs unreliable? Are you sure this is not a cultural thing?

I know this is a tired subject here, but this has not been made clear to me.


Thanks,

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Re: FF question

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:08 am

TP,

I used the approach taught in Perfect Retrieve DVD on my current dog. He had a good recall, a strong natural retrieve, and a wonderfully soft mouth. All I needed was a way to teach him to hold the bird until I told him to "give" and this approach got us where we needed to be. Most dogs get through a FF program just fine, but I am not one to attach near mythical benefits to putting a dog through a FF program. As with all things related to training dogs there is more than one approach and some dogs benefit from them. I judged my current dog was one of them.
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Re: FF question

Postby Chadwick » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:12 am

TruAblePup wrote: I have heard this said many times. But how do you get past the concept that with FF you are applying pain before the dog fully understands what is expected? Is that not inherently an avenue that leads to distrust? How are you doing FF in a manner that leads to greater trust?


Your logic is correct.

FF trains dogs to retrieve. I do not know whether trust has anything to do with it as "trust" is a human concept. But saying that FF makes the the dog trust the handler more probably makes the handler feel better about putting the dog through the process I suppose.

FF, like all other training, sets up ways for a handler to control a dog that has a lack of experience. Once the control is in place, the handler puts the dog into a number of scenarios where there is a high probability of success and then uses the control (aka training) to make the dog successful. Once the dog learns the scenarios and that there is a reward, such as finding a bird, the dog does the scenarios on its own to get to the reward.

Below is a quote from Kiger.

Kiger2 wrote: When we send the dog 300 yards, initially in training they go because they have to. but as training progresses and they learn that there is always something there, they go because they trust us. They sit on a whistle at 300 yards (without the collar on) because they have learned to trust us that they will be rewarded for the proper response. Untold numbers of dogs have been through FF with no loss of "trust". If they didn't trust us they wouldn't work for us.


Here is my rewrite of Kiger's quote from my view:

When we send the dog 300 yards, initially in training they go because they have to. But as training progresses, they learn that there is always something there, which the dog finds rewarding. They sit on a whistle at 300 yards (without a collar on) because they have learned that they will be rewarded for the proper response.

If you put a dog through FF and then put it in scenarios where there is no reward, eventually the dog will have great difficulty in completing the tasks. The "trust" will not carry the dog. The reward carries the dog.

Think of this scenario: you never trained the dog - every time you took the dog to a specific field you always had a bird planted 100 yards from where you started with the dog inside the same 10 foot circle. The first time you go to the field, the dog has no idea. You move around with the dog until the dog finds the bird. You keep repeating this process never saying or showing the dog anything. One day when you get to the field, the moment the dog's feet hit the ground, it will run exactly to the spot to get the bird. Did trust having anything to do with it? No.

TruAblePup wrote: Brits/Germans, as I understand it don't use FF. Are their dogs unreliable? Are you sure this is not a cultural thing?


They don't. They just use another process for instilling control until the dog understands that following the process leads to a reward, which we call success.
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