FF question

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Re: FF question

Postby mastercaster » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:29 pm

I'm not 100% positive but I'll go out on a limb to say that Kiger2 has only seen small clips of of the 2 DVD set Smartfetch that are available on Youtube because he has mentioned a few times that Graham doesn't spend much time on "Hold". I looked last night and "Hold" is covered for the first 40+ minutes of the first DVD, plus he mentions to keep on top of the hold command if the dog appears to mouth the dummy throughout both of the DVDs. I'm just a novice FF guy, but IMHO, I thought it was lots of time to spend on that part of the FF process. It was covered well.

I also started watching some of the Dodd's FF material that's available on Youtube and although I wouldn't use the toe hitch when I think the ear pinch and reinforced e-collar work is easily sufficient I wouldn't have any problem following his program if that was what has worked for me in the past. I coach a few different sports and as any good coach will tell you, you'd be crazy not to take (steal) the best parts of any coach's program,,,,just makes you a better coach!
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Re: FF question

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:13 pm

mastercaster wrote:I'm not 100% positive but I'll go out on a limb to say that Kiger2 has only seen small clips of of the 2 DVD set Smartfetch that are available on Youtube because he has mentioned a few times that Graham doesn't spend much time on "Hold". I looked last night and "Hold" is covered for the first 40+ minutes of the first DVD, plus he mentions to keep on top of the hold command if the dog appears to mouth the dummy throughout both of the DVDs. I'm just a novice FF guy, but IMHO, I thought it was lots of time to spend on that part of the FF process. It was covered well.

I also started watching some of the Dodd's FF material that's available on Youtube and although I wouldn't use the toe hitch when I think the ear pinch and reinforced e-collar work is easily sufficient I wouldn't have any problem following his program if that was what has worked for me in the past. I coach a few different sports and as any good coach will tell you, you'd be crazy not to take (steal) the best parts of any coach's program,,,,just makes you a better coach!


Dobbs and Evan both learned the yard work system from Rex Carr, the most innovative dog trainer of all time. Dobbs was his yard man, then went to work for TT. Dobbs and Evan simply modified Rex's system to fit them. Both systems have the same base. Rex's system has produced more Field and NFCs than any system in history.
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Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:54 pm

Meridian Dave. Dobbs doesn't cover FTP in the FF video.I believe he does cover it in his book, but I loaned it out years ago and never got it back. Even if he doesn't do FTP, no reason not to use his program to get to that point, then follow evans or someone else's. He does cover walking fetch with the ecollar. The dog is ready for FTP after that, see following.

Gonehuntin.

My friend has used his tailgate and been happy with it. An advantage of the 16 foot table is the distance you have when you teaching "Fetch". You are basically doing FTP on the table. Makes the transition to FTP and walking fetch on the ground very smooth.

Mastercaster, Mentioning a lot that you need to stay on top of mouthing is not the same as pressure conditioning hold. He's right you need to stay on top of it. But if you pressure condition hold the dog gets a lot more time with hold than what evan does.

Remember. A big part of FF is the pressure conditioning. Everytime we hand the dog something he doesn't want to hold and we have to reinforce the command, he gains experience with pressure conditioning. Thats why after using the ear pinch and ecollar to teach and reinforce the hold command, the transition to the toe hitch is easy. And remember. We onl;y use the toe hitch when the dog is stationary. As soon as we have the dog reaching and have overlaid the e collar we can discontinue the toe hitch and complete FF on the table with the tool we will use the rest of the dogs life, the ecollar.

Doc Pretty sure I saw evan using a paint roller to teach hold didn't I? Not really a "puppy" tool at that point.

Im glad your dogs will hold anything/ What Im trying do id give new people a more complete and through process so they can do the same thing and be more fair to the dog.
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Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:56 pm

Kiger2 wrote:
1. Doc Pretty sure I saw evan using a paint roller to teach hold didn't I? Not really a "puppy" tool at that point.

2. Im glad your dogs will hold anything/ What Im trying do id give new people a more complete and through process so they can do the same thing and be more fair to the dog.


1. Of course -- because the puppy has been retrieving paint rollers for just about it's whole life up to that point.
"Not really a puppy tool" ? How old is a dog until it's no longer considered a puppy ?
Do you even know ?

2. Same here !

3. Nobody needs a stinkin tailgate or bench.

4. Why am I still in this stupid conversation >
.
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Re: FF question

Postby PL_Guy » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:14 pm

Doc E wrote:
4. Why am I still in this stupid conversation >
.



Because in these venues, once one "participant" makes the "discussion" "personal," only the strongest can resist the temtation to follow?

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Re: FF question

Postby Dakotazeb » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:52 pm

Ok guys, I'm less than a week into the Dobb's trained retrieve. My Brittany was doing very good with the fingers in the mouth and commanding her to "Hold". So I started placing a 1 1/2" wooden dowel in her mouth and telling her to "Hold". She holds quite well (mouthing it a bit) but has never spit it out until I say the "Give" command. Now after just one day with the dowel when I present it in front of her she reaches and grabs it so I have started saying "Fetch" when I present the dowel. I've never had to use any force to get to this point. Thus I'm a little confused as to the rate she is progressing. So, for those more experience than I in this process I'm looking for advice. Thanks.
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Re: FF question

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:50 pm

I think Kiger will have to help you. I believe he's the only one I know of using Dobbs. Perhaps you can PM him.
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Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:04 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:Ok guys, I'm less than a week into the Dobb's trained retrieve. My Brittany was doing very good with the fingers in the mouth and commanding her to "Hold". So I started placing a 1 1/2" wooden dowel in her mouth and telling her to "Hold". She holds quite well (mouthing it a bit) but has never spit it out until I say the "Give" command. Now after just one day with the dowel when I present it in front of her she reaches and grabs it so I have started saying "Fetch" when I present the dowel. I've never had to use any force to get to this point. Thus I'm a little confused as to the rate she is progressing. So, for those more experience than I in this process I'm looking for advice. Thanks.


The dog SHOULD NOT take the bumper (dowel etc) Before given the command. If the dog is doing it on it's own, that means the dog has taken control of the session and not you.
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Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:56 pm

Dakota Zeb,

You're doing fine.

Ultimately, "Fetch" is a movement command. So we ideally want the dog to be reaching to turn off pressure. So its not an issue to reach without a command. The dog is not taking "Control" its just anticipating whats required, showing understanding of the task at hand, and trying to cooperate, its being "biddable". easier to train.

Seems to be a bonus to me? Its one of the benefits of Dobbs method, dogs reach before we ask them to. After we get off the table and doing walking fetch, we can teach the dog only to fetch on command, though I bet you won't need this.

She is advancing pretty fast with the dowel, thats why we use different objects. How hard is it for a dog to hold a paint roller or a bumper that its been playing with its whole life?

I would stop using "fetch" and stick with "Hold"."Fetch" is a movement command, keep it separate.

What we want to instill with "hold" is to keep the mouth still. so rolling or mouthing should be corrected. sharp tug on the neck. If that does not get the result, start tapping the dowel, dont say anything, just reward with a gentle "good" or "good dog" for correct behavior. "Use as little pressure as possible,but as much as is needed".
If he drops as you tap, apply ear pressure until you put it back in his mouth. Pressure applied when the object is not in its mouth. when you get comfortable that the rolling is corrected. If he she reaches, fine, just stick with "hold".Switch to something else that may be a bit harder to hold. If rolling is a real issue, knock the dowel out of the mouth and apply pressure until you get it back in the mouth. You should be able to tap, or even pull on the object until you give the drop command. The comparison for the dog is easy, object in mouth, good , object out of the mouth or rolling, bad.

Once the rolling is corrected, have her walk down the table. They usually drop when asked to move. Correct each drop with the ear pinch. When she can hold and walk the length of the table and back and then sit at one end and bring it to you. then move to a different object. Really ,if she cant walk the length of the table and hold, does she really understand the command?

What Dobbs did was to show a method to break down FF into parts that were easier for the dog to comprehend and for YOU to teach. Its not maybe the best program for a pro trying to crank dogs out.

You can PM me for help or do it here. Ill be chukar hunting next week so out of touch a bit. Ill check in the next couple of days to see if you have questions.

My goal for you would be to use 3 to 5 different objects that the dog does not want to hold and get the dog to hold them as you walk it up and down the table and then to walking hold on the ground. Then go back to the table and work on birds. Ultimately, holding a live pigeon as the dog walks on the ground.

Im certain GH and Doc will say this is overboard, but IM not talking to someone thats been doing this for ears, Im trying to help folks on their first dog.

As general info, it may seem a bit contradictory to just use "hold" when the dog is already reaching. but in the retriever world, we teach "fetch" for FF, to reach for an object , but transition to "Back" to get them to move away from us. Its a process.
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Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:05 am

Kiger2 wrote:Dakota Zeb,

You're doing fine.

1. Ultimately, "Fetch" is a movement command. So we ideally want the dog to be reaching to turn off pressure. So its not an issue to reach without a command. The dog is not taking "Control" its just anticipating whats required, showing understanding of the task at hand, and trying to cooperate, its being "biddable". easier to train.

2. Seems to be a bonus to me? Its one of the benefits of Dobbs method, dogs reach before we ask them to. After we get off the table and doing walking fetch, we can teach the dog only to fetch on command, though I bet you won't need this.

3. She is advancing pretty fast with the dowel, thats why we use different objects. How hard is it for a dog to hold a paint roller or a bumper that its been playing with its whole life?


1. The dog should not be anticipating what's coming. They should be anticipating the next command and that's all. All dogs (regardless of the program) come to a point that they anticipate and reach before being commanded -- this is a big NO NO (at least in the high class retriever world). This makes "fetch - no fetch" go much smoother.
2. It might seem like a bonus to you, but not to those of us who have high class retrievers, and once again, I say, 'you don't need no stinkin table or tailgate'.
3. It isn't hard for a pup to hold a paint roller --- holding it properly and on command only is much more important.


And, you didn't answer one of my previous questions, "Hoe old is a dog before it isn't considered to still be a pup" ?

.
Last edited by Doc E on Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FF question

Postby Dakotazeb » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:19 pm

Doc E wrote:

And, you didn't answer one of my previous questions, "How old is a dog before it isn't considered to still be a pup" ?

.


Good question. I don't have an answer. Seems to vary from one dog to another.
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Re: FF question

Postby Densa44 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:51 pm

Wow 3 pages on the finer points of FF. It is not that hard, My first lab was never FF, and I field trailed her for 3 years and she never dropped a bird. The point about the dogs not liking ducks, my experience has been the opposite. The feathers all come off chukar but not a duck. My dogs just love ducks.

Have a plan, take your time, never lose your temper and try to make it fun for you both. After I take the bird from the dog I fumble it, and she grabs it almost before it hits the ground. BTW this is not the most important skill the dog needs but it can ruin your day if you start teaching it and don't finish it successfully.
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Re: FF question

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:30 pm

Densa44 wrote:Wow 3 pages on the finer points of FF. It is not that hard, My first lab was never FF, and I field trailed her for 3 years and she never dropped a bird. The point about the dogs not liking ducks, my experience has been the opposite. The feathers all come off chukar but not a duck. My dogs just love ducks.

Have a plan, take your time, never lose your temper and try to make it fun for you both. After I take the bird from the dog I fumble it, and she grabs it almost before it hits the ground. BTW this is not the most important skill the dog needs but it can ruin your day if you start teaching it and don't finish it successfully.


Lina of depends on the pooch as to hard it is.
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Re: FF question

Postby gundog » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:58 pm

I progressed very solidly through the force fetch over the last month, thanks to the products I purchased and many of the very informative posters on this board. My dog retrieves dead/live birds to hand and sits for delivery, thank you!
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Re: FF question

Postby PL_Guy » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

look up "avoidance response" and "escape response" to fully understand the fine points of FF (and some other force trained stuff). Jere
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