FF question

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Re: FF question

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:49 pm

No, I've simply decided a blowhard like you isn't worth my time.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:09 pm

You are beyond redemption.
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Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:54 pm

Whenever your answer to a question is to demean the questioner, you have demonstrated that you have no valid argument to overcome the questions and have lost.

To show those others in attendance Ill explain the difference.

To start though, we have to remember that you can teach FF with Smartfetch and many other programs. Pros use these programs because they do work and are faster for them to crank out dogs. Faster rarely equates to most thorough and complete.

I have my smart fetch book here and as i read through the contents, I see a section for force fetch, but not for hold. Hold is addressed. Starts on the bottom of page 30, ends on page 35. Dobbs treats "Hold" as almost half his FF process.

Evan states on page 32 that "Fetch and Hold are both force taught commands". That is true. But lets examine the difference in programs.

smartefetch advises putting the object in the mouth and either tapping the bridge of the nose or under the chin should the dog start to spit out the object.

I think this is an error in timing of the correction. Having the object in the mouth should be pleasant, the dog shouldn't get its nose tapped.

After teaching the command hold by using a gloved hand (first significant difference) dobbs uses the ear pinch to reinforce the command. (2nd difference) He places the object in the dogs mouth and if the dog spits it out, he applies ear pressure until the object is back in the mouth. This makes the comparison of what is expected and what isn't much easier for the dog to comprehend. If the dog is rolling the object or mouthing, Dobbs will raise the scruff of the neck,(third difference) this causes the dog react by closing its mouth. Your hand is always gently stroking the dogs neck unless it rolls the object. Again, this makes the comparison easier for the dog at its easy for the trainer to get the timing correct. Dobbs uses a variety of objects to help the dog gain a greater understanding of the object (another difference). Ultimately using birds. (another difference).

Dobbs then transitions to using the ecollar to reinforce hold. (another difference). Dog has been previously ecollar conditioned so the collar can be safely used here. The timing is the same. Dog drops the object, pressure on, you place object back in mouth, pressure off.

As evan talk about, the dog will usually have trouble holding the object as you ask it to start moving. With Dobbs, we have a very effective method for proving the correction at the right time. Thats the ecollar. No need to wrap a rope around the muzzle.

Another difference with dobbs is that during the hold phase the dog will likely start reaching for the object as you place it in front of its mouth. This reaction shows that dobbs method is preparing the dog for "fetch". So when we start fetch, the dog is already very used to turning off pressure by getting the object in its mouth. That makes getting the dog to reach for it much easier.

Im not going to go over fetch as Ive already proven my point.

So its painfully clear that Dobbs is a more complete and thorough method for teaching FF.

Lets all check in to see what kind of names Gonehuntin can call me next!!!!

And doc, pretty sure I just redeemed myself!!! Though if you have any rational points you would like to make Im all ears.

And if anyone else knows of a program thats more complete and thorough, let me know, Im always looking for a better way.
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Re: FF question

Postby mastercaster » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:33 pm

I'm pretty sure I don't need to come to anybody's defence here but the Smartfetch DVD is more comprehensive than the book so you might want to watch it to see how his instruction on FFing is now more comprehensive now. I didn't read the book but Graham definitely spends a lot of time on "Hold" in the video format. I took a lot of my FF methodology from Jon Hann's Perfect Retrieve but after watching both Graham's and Hann's DVD sets I tried to take what I thought was the best of both worlds. Being new to FF, I can't say that one is better than the other. Maybe you pros could, but I think they're both very good resources. They do differ slightly.

For example, Hann starts the FF process off using a training table; Graham likes to work from the ground sitting on a bucket. Hann goes straight into e-collar work to teach "hold" if the dog has already been e-collar conditioned whereas Graham starts the process with the ear pinch, then reinforces with the collar later on.

As I said, I used both DVD sets. Because I started FFing my pup at 7-8 months of age I was prepared to work VERY slowly on the process so I used just about all the information given in both DVD sets. I don't know if that was a mistake but it sure seemed to work for me,,,,,,I think she is doing very well considering I'm only a novice. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any live birds living in an urban environment so I've only gotten as far as frozen and thawed bird work.

I should mention that Hann's Perfect Retrieve appears to be designed more for the pointer (upland bird work) where as Graham's seems to be more for retrievers. The Perfect Retrieve doesn't go into Force to Pile work like Smartfetch does but the 4 DVDs does cover other information that Graham doesn't.
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