Bruce Schwartz wrote:Rex Carr probably never ever heard of PR or even considered that form of training. Nor did Charlie Morgan, nor D.L. Walters, nor Ann Walters, nor John Olin nor Cotton Pershall, or even our own bird boy turned guru Evan Graham. They all needed their dogs to dependably retrieve so they could get on to the next order of business on their training program. Aversive style FF was their solution and it worked. It still does. But times are changing. Bob Farris says of traditional FF in his newly released book, "there are gentler approaches that can achieve very favorable results that the novice trainer can use."
Certainly Rex, Morgan and DL heard of PR. They kicked dog's butt's trained using that method on a daily basis. That is HOW AND WHY the ecollar became so popular in training and why virtually every trainer in the country went to it. ALSO realize that retriever training is FAR more exacting than the training any versatile dog has ever gone through and this exacting, precise, training is why force was refined to the point it is today.
Bruce Schwartz wrote:Farris also said, "Possibly the most important factor following successful force retrieve training is the relationship the dog will have with its owner. There is a bond that develops where the dog will willingly allow the owner to now become the alpha representative of the relationship." He goes on to say that the dogs will "at least be more willing to obey commands with a happy tail and good eye contact." That's a pretty powerful statement, and I've previously heard people say that their dogs have greater prowess and are more determined after the process. That could be the real point Ryanr says we're missing when he speaks of FF as to "where trust is built and solidified".
That is the key point that many of us have preached on here for years. It also shapes HOW the dog will learn for the rest of his life.
[quote=Bruce Schwartz"]It's worth discussing (and probably harder still to measure) as it still seems to be part of the dogma we hear surrounding the use of force. So does the "gentle" process Farris personally uses produce dogs with less trust or weaker bonds than the dogs he has forced by pros? Would my dogs trust me more or hunt harder if I had only forced them to bend to my will on the FF table for a few weeks? I do wonder.[/quote]
Because he uses AS MUCH FORCE IS REQUIRED it diminishes nothing. The dog is still forced to comply.