Still bumping birds

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Still bumping birds

Postby jjseman » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:28 pm

I have a small Munsterlander,it’s her second hunting season and she still continues to bump birds constantly. It appears that she is relying exclusively on tracking and ground scent to find them. She does that in training. I need to saturate a training field with a lot of tracks to get her away from literally following my exact path to the planted bird. I’ve even waited an hour to let my scent dissipate. In hunting she seems so focused on the track that she follows it right up to the birds butt. I have hunted her on woodcock, rough grouse, and released (not planted) pheasants. The grouse kick her ass, they don’t tolerate a pushy dog, she gets birdy, and they take off. Woodcock are even 50/50 with her because they sit really tight and allow for sloppy mistakes. Same with the liberated pheasants, which either let her follow their scent trail right up to within a couple of feet of them, or run safely ahead of her while she has her head on the ground tracking them. Her tails whips excitedly as she follows the trail, you can’t whoa her because she doesn’t indicate the bird’s proximity to her. I’ll tell her “easy” when I think she is on to something close. Her point isn’t solid, when she actually does point. She tends to creep in out of curiosity, I wouldn’t say she is really trying to take birds out either.
The first puppy season I would not shoot a bird that she didn’t point and hold for my flush. It was a ton of bird contact with me just yelling “no bird”. Nothing clicked with her. She was content to chase. This year, I gave her the benefit of the doubt at times by shooting birds that I could see she had made an effort on pointing. I figured she might need to see that our team work can accomplish birds in the bag. I’m not sure how to get her more cautious with birds. Yelling “no bird” and making her come back to me has been ineffective. We’ve done this routine many, many times. They say birds make a bird dog, well we have done just that. Miles of walking, dozens of bird contacts, no bird dog yet. I also don’t want to stim her when she bust birds because I don’t want her to start blinking them, she can be on the soft side, as most munsterlanders are. Any ideas?
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby blue04 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:52 pm

Time to dechase. Then "stop to flush" training. Some folks would rather let the birds teach the dogs (IE: dog bumps bird, bird flies off, dog chases, dog eventually realizes that it can't catch the birds), and that probably works for most dogs. But it takes a lot longer and for some dogs, it just doesn't work.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby Doc E » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:12 pm

Blu is correct.
Time for "de-chasing".
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:38 pm

+1 here as well.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby jjseman » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:05 am

Can you explain the best way to de-chase train a dog? Is it similar to trash breaking when a dog takes off after a running deer? Up until now, I’ve just yelled “no bird” give her an opportunity to stop the chase, then if she continues (which she always does), I give her a recall command “come”, a command she knows well. If recall isn’t instant - a mild shock is given and she then stops the chase immediately and returns to me. That’s how things have been going, and as I mentioned- no marked improvement.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby Duckdon » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:49 pm

I am also wondering about the quality of her nose.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby jjseman » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:41 am

I would think her nose is very good judging by her ability to follow tracks. I have seen her follow old scent effortlessly and aggressively. She just relies almost exclusively on ground scent. I’m going to make an effort to expose her to work into the wind more, until sh starts using the air scent on her own more. Thank you for the link on de-chase training also, I read it. It is something I will do.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:43 pm

Reading all this de-chase stuff and still get drawn back to the dog tracking to the birds....

Root cause of this is planting birds for dogs with intelligence and strong tracking instincts!

He steamrolls the track and doesnt have a chance to decellerate... probably hasnt scented the birds at all. Then the bust and sight chase just like a rabbit... why expect different?

Pup has learned that its more efficient to track than search... so, now a second problem SEARCH...

Get pup on wild or at least released birds.

Not his nose...

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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:55 pm

A dog should never, ever, be able to follow you to the bird. What you do is walk a straight line and plant the bird 90 degrees up wind from your track.

Then come back, get the dog, and hun 30 yards DOWNWIND of the birds, so when the dog hits the bird scent, she will hit it instantly and have no tract to follow. When she gets that bird, turn 180 degrees, walk back 30 yards, then turn 90 degrees and hunt cross wind again to the next bird. If you plant and work the dog this way, she can NEVER track you to a bird.

Try that and see what happens.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby blue04 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:29 pm

If you have a big enough training ground, you can flush birds into the field rather than plant them. You don't have control over where they are in the field, but the dog can't track you. I usually plant birds from a four wheeler. I run my dogs for exercise with the four wheeler a lot, so they don't generally assume that a four wheeler track equals a planted bird.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby jjseman » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:34 am

Good idea on going in straight to plant the birds/elimate my scent trail. I will try that. I was doing the opposite by stinking up the entire area in hopes to confuse her as to what part of my trail might have the bird, one I realized rubber boots and gloves weren’t fooling her.
She does get plenty of non planted bird contact via liberated birds on Soto. 400 acres of ground. They act as wild as a bird can be in Ohio:-(
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:46 pm

I tried the release trap on my current pup... 4 birds and it was an OB excercise. All track, no search, and a pounce.

I found a great preserve... and, from the get go her search was back and her points SOLID. She's held 15-20 minutes while I GPS 100yds or more to her in the thick cane.

Good birds will teach a bird dog!!!

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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:10 pm

When I trained my Jack dog he learned to track my clean rubber boots to my launchers after the first time. He then learned to track a 4 wheeler at a game farm after the first time as well. So I am very familiar with how some dogs with strong tracking skills will track to planted birds.

But I quickly switched to using the method Gonehuntin outlined and solved the problem of him tracking to the launchers. Then by launching the birds if he roaded in on them at all it presented those pigeons as those they were wary and wild and taught him he could not advance into the scent once he had it. He learned quickly and started pointing with style/intensity nicely.

Strong flying homing pigeons in launchers set out the way GH laid out so the dog does not hit the trainer's foot scent first, but rather hits the bird scent cone first will work well for alot of pups. Certainly not all but alot. It is the method laid out in the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs which is where I learned it.

I started Spud by setting the launchers from the upwind side and never had the problem occur.
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Re: Still bumping birds

Postby jjseman » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:39 pm

Thank you guys for the advice and encouragement. I will get this Munsterlander pointing, I’m determined and with her biddable nature, I think she’ll be great. Everything else is there, I just need to get the point sorted out.
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