Hole in training

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Hole in training

Postby daeion » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:12 pm

It appears that I'll be doing a lot more duck hunting then I originally thought I would be and this means there's at least one, if not more, holes in the training my 12 month old SM has had, that hole being sitting in the same place for long periods of time. I've taken her out the last two weekends for ducks and she'll sit for about 3 minutes before she stands up and starts moving around, and she'd much rather be running around in the woods then just sitting there. All of the training that was done with trainers and such focused on actual field work and such, not just sitting there for an hour. So I need to fill in this hole, where do I start?
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Re: Hole in training

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:36 pm

A lot depends on the pup's disposition... some with a lot of drive cannot sit still without a lot of work.

It may be a little late, but Hillman's "Traffic Cop" video is a great method to train to "sit" as well as for other stationary commands.

Another thing is evening squirrel hunting on a stand. Set up near a den tree and shoot a couple squirrels, then send her to retrieve as it gets dark.

Just a few suggestions,

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Re: Hole in training

Postby Hunters Edge » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:30 am

Did you give her/him the command to sit? If so and you did not give her/him another command or a release command, and he/she is releasing itself or ignoring your command? This is your hole.

You are going to need help, not just the dog. First thing is if you give a dog command they are not permitted to break that command (especially if they know it). Your training should revolve around this simple rule.

Once you have that in mind and practice it religiously, I would use a place mat. Start in the house and continue extending the time on it, then move it to the backyard. A small rug that can be rolled up when not in use and can be used in the house, backyard, duck blind, boat or even on a bank, would not only suffice but works great. Eventually the dog will understand and the rug can be washed and put away for your next pups training.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby JONOV » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:05 pm

One thing I've seen used are basically layout blinds for dogs...Give her the kennel command and keep enforcing it. Dog goes and lies down in it.

Or, you take her hunting a handful of times and focus on her rather than the ducks...every time she gets up you correct her and force her back to the down or sit or whatever...I prefer "down" since it gives the dog a lower profile so as not to scare ducks.

If it makes you feel any better, she sounds like many dogs I've seen. There's just too much to explore for them to want to sit quietly with you.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:17 pm

12 months old is very young to be remembering a command for three minutes. I'd recommend that you continue to do obedience work but maybe relax expectations until the dog is older. In the meantime I'd use a snubbed lead in the duck blind. She'll get the picture.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:53 pm

Put a rug on the floor in the house. Have him stay and reward frequently. Extend the length of time needed each day. When he's consistent, move to the yard, then back to the blind.

Self control is difficult but critical and can be taught at any age.

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Re: Hole in training

Postby daeion » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:40 pm

Hunters Edge wrote:Did you give her/him the command to sit? If so and you did not give her/him another command or a release command, and he/she is releasing itself or ignoring your command? This is your hole.

You are going to need help, not just the dog. First thing is if you give a dog command they are not permitted to break that command (especially if they know it). Your training should revolve around this simple rule.

Once you have that in mind and practice it religiously, I would use a place mat. Start in the house and continue extending the time on it, then move it to the backyard. A small rug that can be rolled up when not in use and can be used in the house, backyard, duck blind, boat or even on a bank, would not only suffice but works great. Eventually the dog will understand and the rug can be washed and put away for your next pups training.


I'll give the sit command and she'll sit, and then after 1-3 minutes she breaks without being given the release command. I'll tell her again to sit, and she sits, and then eventually breaks again. I had been doing it with her food, make her sit, put down the food, and then make her wait before releasing her but she's not very food motivated so it wasn't that hard for her to sit there.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:42 pm

Try some excercises w e-collar if shes conditioned.

Command "sit"... nick..."sit"... nick..."sit"... nick..., etc.

All low level...

In a couple days when you release her, you will see her hesitate to move...

It's Hillmann's method... works!

Good luck,

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Re: Hole in training

Postby Willie T » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:51 pm

Lots of good advice above. I liked Kiwi's best. My advice would be to revisit obedience after you realize that you are currently teaching your dog there is no penalty for breaking a command, so they are optional. After you realize this, seperate obedience from hunting. It is time to screw down your commands. When you give a command the dog remains under command until you give a release command. In the old days we did it with a pinch collar and I still get a lot done with one. After I have things squared away I will overlay the e-collar and add more time and distance. Take one command at a time and tighten it up. For the dog to do what you want in the field it first needs to learn in the yard. You must be consistent 100% of the time. If you are not in position to ensure 100% compliance don't give the command. If it moves, you put it back in the exact spot it was commanded to be. If it moves again it is corrected and put back in the same spot. After a while it will learn it can do it its own way, or it can do it your way, but it's gonna do it, every time, and it's own way is a better option. That consistency on your part is what will turn things around. After you have things nice and tight it is time to proof things with distractions. Now you can take your commands to the blind and go hunting.

In the short run it will not be a lot of fun. When you leave the yard and go to the field, the dog will backslide in the presence of distractions. Be prepared for it.

In the long run both you and the dog will be happier. And yes one year old is plenty old enough to have solid obedience.
Good luck working it out.
Willie

P.S.-I edited to add - I am not advocating a heavy handed approach. A correction should be "the very minimum that is behavior altering". That is different for every dog and can only be figured out in the presence of the dog.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:03 pm

Obedience is obedience, no excuses. If you tell her sit, she should sit until commanded to do something else. Period.

Now, the thing is, YOU have to be willing NOT to shoot any birds and just to handle the dog. Keep a short leash on her and when she stands, command NO, SIT or DOWN and enforce it. Like the others, I think 12 months is to young for a pointing dog to go duck hunting with no training. My youngster is 17 months and is handling. This is her first year duck hunting and I'm in ND with her now.

It takes preparation, patience, and SACRIFICE on your part to creat a young duck dog.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby hicntry » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:42 pm

...
Last edited by hicntry on Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby hicntry » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm

Many may recall all the videos I put up of young pups coming in and going up the stairs and sitting on a dog bed. It didn't take long before a release command was needed for them to come down the stairs. That was how self control is taught to high energy dogs. To bad y'all ignored them. :wink:
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Re: Hole in training

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:19 pm

Once again, preparation is the answer. The dog is past old enough to do this.
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Re: Hole in training

Postby Hunters Edge » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:32 am

daeion wrote:
Hunters Edge wrote:Did you give her/him the command to sit? If so and you did not give her/him another command or a release command, and he/she is releasing itself or ignoring your command? This is your hole.

You are going to need help, not just the dog. First thing is if you give a dog command they are not permitted to break that command (especially if they know it). Your training should revolve around this simple rule.

Once you have that in mind and practice it religiously, I would use a place mat. Start in the house and continue extending the time on it, then move it to the backyard. A small rug that can be rolled up when not in use and can be used in the house, backyard, duck blind, boat or even on a bank, would not only suffice but works great. Eventually the dog will understand and the rug can be washed and put away for your next pups training.


I'll give the sit command and she'll sit, and then after 1-3 minutes she breaks without being given the release command. I'll tell her again to sit, and she sits, and then eventually breaks again. I had been doing it with her food, make her sit, put down the food, and then make her wait before releasing her but she's not very food motivated so it wasn't that hard for her to sit there.


Do not use food, exception would be a treat after she stayed there and a release command. Also are you using a placement rug, in actual or real world placement is a raised platform from 4 to 6 inches to help the dog understand. So use a small rug not your hole carpeted room, but a small rug. In the house I even used their dog bed, eventually they curl up and lay down.

So how are you reinforcing your command when she releases herself? First though get a PLACEMAT, even a small rug just not a hard or bristled mat. Start off short and keep extending time.

Again when she breaks your command and moves, what is your response?
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Re: Hole in training

Postby daeion » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:24 pm

Hunters Edge wrote:
daeion wrote:
Hunters Edge wrote:Did you give her/him the command to sit? If so and you did not give her/him another command or a release command, and he/she is releasing itself or ignoring your command? This is your hole.

You are going to need help, not just the dog. First thing is if you give a dog command they are not permitted to break that command (especially if they know it). Your training should revolve around this simple rule.

Once you have that in mind and practice it religiously, I would use a place mat. Start in the house and continue extending the time on it, then move it to the backyard. A small rug that can be rolled up when not in use and can be used in the house, backyard, duck blind, boat or even on a bank, would not only suffice but works great. Eventually the dog will understand and the rug can be washed and put away for your next pups training.


I'll give the sit command and she'll sit, and then after 1-3 minutes she breaks without being given the release command. I'll tell her again to sit, and she sits, and then eventually breaks again. I had been doing it with her food, make her sit, put down the food, and then make her wait before releasing her but she's not very food motivated so it wasn't that hard for her to sit there.


Do not use food, exception would be a treat after she stayed there and a release command. Also are you using a placement rug, in actual or real world placement is a raised platform from 4 to 6 inches to help the dog understand. So use a small rug not your hole carpeted room, but a small rug. In the house I even used their dog bed, eventually they curl up and lay down.

So how are you reinforcing your command when she releases herself? First though get a PLACEMAT, even a small rug just not a hard or bristled mat. Start off short and keep extending time.

Again when she breaks your command and moves, what is your response?


Sorry, was up north with a bad signal. When she breaks I immediately say no! and then tell her to sit again. As this is my first dog I've been working with a trainer, who is currently out of the country, and they taught her that to turn off the e-collar she had to come when called, but I haven't used it for anything else and I don't want to screw things up by using it wrong. It sounds like I need to do place training from what people are describing?
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