WPG Pointing Issues

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby Shooter » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:59 pm

orhunter wrote:What appears to be the problem is the dog developed some very bad habits at a young age and now it can't shake them no matter the effort put into it. The best solution is to not put the dog in situation where it will fail. The more failure it has, the more it becomes habit.


In addition to trying to remedy my current problem, I'm trying to learn for my next pup, whenever that is. I don't understand what you mean here. Can you explain the mistakes I made?

Meridiandave wrote:Is the pup really whoa trained as you say? If so bring it in on a lead and force it to point.

Also get the dog on wild birds like everyone says.


I would not say she's whoa trained. She whoas well for only having positive conditioning. Same for "come". Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't want to force her to point, I want her to WANT to point.

ForestDump wrote:Go back to your yard work and work with woah. Get the dog standing while flying pigeons around her.


Can you elaborate on this? Sounds like de-chasing to me.

orhunter wrote:For chasing, I let my pup run up to where the birds flushed and then correct her with the e-collar. First with the whoa tone, then volts. Again with the setting on the collar low enough it was no more than uncomfortable and hold the button down till she stopped. This way she was less likely to associate the collar with the birds.


So you're whoaing your dog where the birds flushed, reinforcing with the ecollar if need be. Are you doing anything as a follow up? Or is stopping the dog when she still has some bird scent around enough for the dog to put the pieces together?


Chadwick wrote:Shooter,

Before you get too far along, you might want to look at some of the training techniques used by Brad Higgins.

http://higginsgundogs.com/the-higgins-m ... brushpile/

I use it and have very good success. It teaches the dog what to do in a controlled situation, so the dog learns the correct associations. Once those associations are in place, they are transferred to field work. It teaches the dog that working as a team gets the dog the bird.


I like the theory behind the Higgins' method, but it seems to me it could cause a host of other problems. I know Higgins' addresses some of these, I'm just not sure I'm experienced enough for a program like this.

GriffMan wrote:I have trained ALOT of Griffons and most have been easy to train, I have seen your dogs issue come up. What I feel is that it is more of a competition between you and her. She is trying to get to the bird before you do. You kinda broke my cardinal rule of shooting birds for young dogs....I usually wait til the dog is older, so this doesn't happen. Not a big deal, time to move on.
I'll tell you what I did this summer with a 10 month old male that had the same issue all it takes is a good supply of pigeons This male would pull the owner through a brick wall when it got sent. It acknowledged it and then pick up the speed !!
What I did was plant homers in the launchers and take the cord off. It felt like there was no competition and hunted the field. On the first bird it scented it moved a slow step and I launched it, didn't say a word and moved on to the next bird. 2nd bird it ran over and snapped pointed it on the back side...very intense point. It held until the owner came in to flush/launch. The dog learned it was working with not against. We did one more bird which was a good contact and put the dog away and ran a few other dogs. Then brought it back out to run later in the morning.
The second run I let it drag alight cc and again had homers in the launcher. This time when it went on point I had the owner go to the bird and I went to the cc to not allow a run, he handled it well. Then on the 5 th bird,2nd of the session, when the dog established point I gave it a wing clipped as a positive reinforcement.

2 weeks later that dog went 112 Prize 1 at navhda NA test. It went from no point to reliably pointing quit quickly after it learned the owner was not in competition with him.

I would also say, like has been mentioned on here, not to whoa a dog into a point and go out and have fun hunting let the dog learn on wild birds you can start up training in the spring.


Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but what you described only works if the dog actually wants to get the bird. My dog wants to find the bird and get it airborne. Once the bird is on the ground she's lackluster.

The link I posted earlier really describes the situation well, and I really believe some de-chasing is in order.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby GRIFF MAN » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:34 pm

Do you run that dog ON CC or OFF CC ??
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby Shooter » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:04 pm

GRIFF MAN wrote:Do you run that dog ON CC or OFF CC ??

I ran her on until she was about 6 months. Put her back on when we started doing pigeon work.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby orhunter » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:25 pm

Shooter:

It doesn't take many repetitions for something to become habit. I don't think you really did anything wrong other than recognizing when the pup was ready for birds and pointing. Ideally, these should be simultaneous events even if you have to delay bird work. I believe in doing a pointing opportunity every two or three weeks starting at around four months. If the pup fails to point, take the birds away. If you get a point, proceed with caution, like maybe one bird a week. Something else. Dogs sometimes react completely different with pen raised birds than they do with wild birds. I'd rather get a dog pointing wild birds before switching to pen raised so the dog understands the correct behavior prior to actual training. This is completely opposite of what most everyone does so you'll have to listen to those who do it differently because we are no longer dealing with a 4 month old pup.
Last edited by orhunter on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby ForestDump » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:50 pm

It’s not dechasing it’s more getting your woah solid to where she will ignore distractions. From throwing a rock or a hat to throwing love pigeons. This will help keep her calm around flushing birds.

Another method you can try is putting one bird in a launcher and one in the bush next to the launcher. Or just throw one from a bag. This will help keep her steady because she will start to think there’s always more birds coming. CC her into the scent and when she’s standing, kick around and flush a bird. She’ll probably make a move so then hold her and either pop the launcher or toss another bird. She may stop to look at the second bird. If she stands then just love her up and take her away then repeat. Eventually she will want to hold point to see more birds.

One thing is to not train too many repetitions in a session. You don’t want to train till failure. When she gets it right put her up and do something else.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby GRIFF MAN » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:48 pm

Shooter wrote:
GRIFF MAN wrote:Do you run that dog ON CC or OFF CC ??

I ran her on until she was about 6 months. Put her back on when we started doing pigeon work.


Can I ask why you put her back on with pigeon work ?

With out seeing the situation that you described it's hard to guess what the dog is sensing, but competition to get to the bird first is usually the problem with dogs breaking point or not pointing at all. The chasing is a reward after they initially beat you to the bird. De-chasing, might work, but it never has for me.
My dogs learn from an early age that they will never catch a pigeon so they learn quick not to chase.

As I said before, if you are struggling with point much longer, I would take her hunting and let the wild birds help train her. Start up again fresh in the spring.

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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby Shooter » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:22 pm

ForestDump wrote:It’s not dechasing it’s more getting your woah solid to where she will ignore distractions. From throwing a rock or a hat to throwing love pigeons. This will help keep her calm around flushing birds.

Another method you can try is putting one bird in a launcher and one in the bush next to the launcher. Or just throw one from a bag. This will help keep her steady because she will start to think there’s always more birds coming. CC her into the scent and when she’s standing, kick around and flush a bird. She’ll probably make a move so then hold her and either pop the launcher or toss another bird. She may stop to look at the second bird. If she stands then just love her up and take her away then repeat. Eventually she will want to hold point to see more birds.

One thing is to not train too many repetitions in a session. You don’t want to train till failure. When she gets it right put her up and do something else.

That's an idea. Might give that a try.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby Shooter » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:33 pm

GRIFF MAN wrote:
Shooter wrote:
GRIFF MAN wrote:Do you run that dog ON CC or OFF CC ??

I ran her on until she was about 6 months. Put her back on when we started doing pigeon work.


Can I ask why you put her back on with pigeon work ?

With out seeing the situation that you described it's hard to guess what the dog is sensing, but competition to get to the bird first is usually the problem with dogs breaking point or not pointing at all. The chasing is a reward after they initially beat you to the bird. De-chasing, might work, but it never has for me.
My dogs learn from an early age that they will never catch a pigeon so they learn quick not to chase.

As I said before, if you are struggling with point much longer, I would take her hunting and let the wild birds help train her. Start up again fresh in the spring.

Griffman


I put her back on so I could bring her in crosswind to the launcher. A little more control.
Kind of like orhunter alluded to up thread, I actually think she's had too much exposure to wild birds at this point. Like I mentioned in the first post, she's had alot of exposure and she never pointed. She never knew she had to. She chased so many, never catching them, that the fun for her became finding and flushing them. Now I need to convince her that getting the bird is the goal, and we achieve that goal by pointing
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby orhunter » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:29 pm

Actually, I don't think I said that. If I did, it was in error. I think she's had too much exposure to birds (of any kind) where she didn't point. Age and maturity related, nothing more.

Her age and the time of year is kind of a problem right now. I usually tell folks to take their dog off birds in hopes the dog will forget its earlier experience so it can begin with a clean slate. But, there's sort of a conflict with that. Its time to hunt.

I wonder if anyone has considered place board training? Might be in order?
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby Shooter » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:06 pm

I agree, and I haven't had her out in a week. This is the longest she's been off wild birds since Feb. She's been wearing her ecollar, just getting used to it. Going to start some pinch collar work on whoa and come and introduce pressure with the ecollar over the next couple of weeks. Then reintroduce birds. Hunting season goes until January 31st so we have plenty of time.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby GRIFF MAN » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:03 am

I put her back on so I could bring her in crosswind to the launcher. A little more control.


Exactly my point you are controlling to much and causing a competition between you and your dog.



Kind of like orhunter alluded to up thread, I actually think she's had too much exposure to wild birds at this point./


I don't think this is possible to have to much WILD bird exposure. Darn you Orhunter :D

Like I mentioned in the first post, she's had alot of exposure and she never pointed. She never knew she had to. She chased so many, never catching them, that the fun for her became finding and flushing them. Now I need to convince her that getting the bird is the goal, and we achieve that goal by pointing
Shooter


You ever thought about sending her away for some training. It may be helpful to have a trainer use his methods on her ?
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby Chadwick » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:30 am

Shooter,

You have been given a lot of advice and you seem open to trying a lot of it. All the advice given here works. With cc, without cc, popping birds, etc. The thing is to not experiment with your dog. All the advice given here is generally part of a process that is teaching the dog what we want through a series of steps.

I have seen a lot of trainers lose patience and keep switching things up between different approaches looking for a combination of stuff to get what they want, especially when it seems like the dog is not making any progress. That does not work. The dog is not learning a systematic approach and the trainer does not have clearly defined measures of success at each step.

Find a commonly used, suscessful system, for lack of a better term, and apply it. Be patient and give it time to work.

I use Brad Higgins' method because I like it a lot. One part of that method is the magic brushpile. I have gotten dogs through the brushpile in as few a 6 birds and as many a 43. The dog that took 43 birds turned out great, but I had to just be patient and keep working through the steps knowing if I kept going it would eventually work out.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby Shooter » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:42 am

I have thought about a trainer, I've thought about how long to work on a dog before getting rid of her. She's eager to please, I think she'll figure it out as soon as she understands what is expected of her. Maybe just a weak pointing instinct that's going to take a bit to tease out?

I've seen the magic brushpile mentioned a few times now. I've watched the video a few times and there's a lot of things I don't especially care for.

And Chadwick I completely agree with what you're saying. I don't want to be shooting off the hip with this. I also know there's no perfect blueprint for training every dog. We're going to try going back to the basics with a little bit of pressure and see where that gets us before we do anything else.

Again, I appreciate all the input and comments. Learning a lot and giving me a lot to ponder.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby ryanr » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:52 am

Smh. Good luck.
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Re: WPG Pointing Issues

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:51 pm

What kennel is your dog from? This may be very telling.
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