Thanks for the replies!
marsh wrote:IMO tough to say without seeing and knowing the dog. My friend with Griffs went to a pinch collar and stopped the dog as it hit the scent cone. His female steadied up pretty quickly. My PP "roaded" scent hard after tasting feathers. Perhaps start introducing force gradually until she gives the response you want. She is still young. She will get it!! Sounds like she has grear drive... love it, but curse it too!
My plan has been to introduce pressure after her first hunting season. Formal whoa and heel training with pinch collar, then overlay the e-collar. I'm a little hesitant to initially introduce pressure in the presence of birds, but it might be what she needs.
Kiger2 wrote:Seems to me she has no idea that she cant catch every bird she smells. Perhaps with this particular dog, shooting that first bird for her might not be time appropriate, or it could be something else. But if you have been having her retrieve birds, she just may think thats the end goal.
For me, I would convince her she cant catch a flying bird. In other words she needs to be de-chased. Sounds like you have pigeons. I would forget the launchers, just take a pigeon and wave it in her face then throw it so it flys and she cant catch. Don't let her put her mouth on the bird. Use strong flyers and big field if you have it. Throw a bird and let her chase. I would do this until you were both very bored and she just watches the bird leave. If she doesn't understand that she cant catch a flying bird, then there is no penalty for her if she is busting them is there?
Lots of drive in the dog which is good, you cant really put that in. But I think you are approaching a crossroad. Nothing wrong with positive reinforcement you haven't hurt a thing. But It may be likely that you will have to move on to using pressure. It may be the only thing that will get you to be able to work with this dog. She's plenty old enough and in my opinion past due for some solid obedience. Get with someone that can help you with an ecollar. But definitely try the dechase drill first.
I have two friends coming over next week with young dogs. First thing we will do is dechase.
Where are you located?
And good luck!!!
We have done a fair amount of retrieving. She's retrieved 4 dead birds prior to shooting the pigeon over her. I'm confident she knows she can't catch the bird. She's never caught a live one. I think the reward for her is finding and flushing it. My concern with the de-chasing drill you described is does that have potential to turn her off of birds?
I agree completely she is physically and emotionally ready for pressure and formal obedience. I've been hesitant to start that process while we're in hunting mode. But maybe we can do both? I'm in NE Oregon.
orhunter wrote:I think she's had far too much exposure to pen raised birds and artificial training situations. New owners of pointing dogs can get so much into training, they forget the dog. You can't train for every situation and think if you do, it's a reasonable substitute for wild birds and hunting. Training does not make a hunting dog. Training is for fine tuning a dog after it's learned the basics through that first year of hunting.
Put away all the training gear, let it gather some dust. All you need is an e-collar with a tone or vibration feature and use it to teach whoa. When you get to the point where the dog responds reliably to the collar without a verbal command, the dog will be ready to wear the collar while hunting. But, the dog should be wearing an e-collar every time you are out in the field whether it be for training/hunting or just going for a walk. You may have no intentions of using it but it should still be worn. If you put the collar on only when you plan on using it, the dog will become collar wise and this needs to be avoided. The dog should associate the collar with everything fun that happens, not just the discomfort it sometimes provides. When the dog refuses the tone/vibration command, you need to go instantly to volts. Set the collar on the lowest setting that gets the desired results. I don't like to nick dogs with high voltage but rather hold the button down at a lower setting till the dog decides it really doesn't like the feeling. You can use whatever method works best for you and your dog. You want the dog to learn it cannot refuse the tone/vibration command under any circumstances. Whether it be in your yard or out in the field, never.
I'm glad you chimed in orhunter. When I was browsing these forums formulating a training plan I really liked your approach. Let the birds teach the dog. I did exactly that. Between 3 months to 8 months her only contacts were wild birds, she's in the neighborhood of 150 flushes during that time. I saw no inkling of pointing which is why I bought the launcher and pigeons. She's had exactly 11 encounters with pigeons in launchers since Aug 1st to today. I don't think the pigeons have hurt anything, in fact they at least showed me she does in fact have some pointing instinct. Which is encouraging.
Again, thank you all for the comments.
The common theme is she needs pressure. Should I quit hunting her and exposing her to birds to work on obedience/pressure introduction? Then go back to birds and whoa her with pressure when she hits scent? Can we work on both at the same time?
Does de-chasing make more sense?
