Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby STait » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:10 am

Either me or my dogs handler "nags" them with the e-collar after vocal command to turn them while running or if they get behind, basically to change direction. Doesn't slow the dog down or interrupt their running. It just lets them know to mind what the handler is asking them to do.
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Lurker » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:49 am

The debate between "shocking" verses "stimulation" reminds me of the discussion between stopping verses slowing down as I have posted below. There is a difference.


Deputy says, "License and registration, please."
Lawyer says, "What for?"
Deputy says, " You didnt come to a complete stop at the stop sign."
Lawyer says, "I slowed down, and no one was coming."
Deputy says, "You still didnt come to a complete stop. License and registration, please."
Lawyer says, "Whats the difference?"
Deputy says, "The difference is, you have to come to complete stop, thats the law. License and registration, please!"
Lawyer says, "If you can show me the legal difference between slow down and stop, Ill give you my license and registration; and you give me the ticket. If not, you let me go and dont give me the ticket."
Deputy says, "Sounds fair. Exit your vehicle, sir."
At this point, the deputy takes out his nightstick and starts beating the ever-loving crap out of the lawyer and says, "Do you want me to stop or just slow down?
Lurker
Started
Started
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:38 am

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:33 am

Lurker,
Yes somewhat similar but not really. The officer was clearly wrong for beating the lawyer. The lawyer should have stopped because stop means stop, correct? I say stop , dog must stop. But does the dog get a stimulation because it didn't stop or a beating? You are just OK because its the Lawyer getting beaten, not because its right. The true comparison would be this, Lawyer refuses a sit whistle. (he's supposed to know the law correct?), I hit the lawyer with a sit whistle and a stimulation to remind him he has to sit. If he refuses the "sit" again, he gets more stimulation. He the lawyer continues to refuse to sit, eventual he gets to a "shock",


Misskiwi,
Coming from the medical profession its seems to me Gonehuntins points are clear. Around 1987 I had a back issue and went to a" back cracker". Assistant put pads inn my back and Stimulated (shocked by your definition ) my muscles. Like gonehuntin, it felt good. If she had put pads on my back and hit me with a tri tronics level 6, i would have beatin the crap out of her!

If you don't understand the difference, you should put the collar away.

Im telling you I have seen injuries that would make humans cry and they don't! 16 year old kid thinks he's mad max and jumps the hill with his car, takes out 100 yards of chain link fence and ends up with a top rail through his upper left torso through his shoulder into the back seat. We have to cut both sides of the top rail to get him out of the car. He doesn't cry, he doesnt scream, etc.... he is frickin talking to us!!!!! So don't tell me about pain, Ive seen 34 YEARS OF PEOLPLE IN PAIN.(animals also) I am not or never was a paramedic, but I learned to look at people (and animals) and identify when they were truly in distress.

Perhaps , just perhaps, that genetically, initial injury cause vocalization, but making noise and telling the saber-toothed tiger , or perhaps the dingo, you are injured is a bad survival strategy.?


Read Gonehutnins last sentence. He's spot on!!!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Meridiandave » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:13 pm

It has taken me awhile to post on this for two reasons

First, I wanted to reread the article.

Second, I wanted to get further into my own force fetch program.

So let me admit to a bias here. Ed Bailey is the guy who played a big role in the Griffon/CK cross. Which has morphed into the Bohemian Wirehaired Pointing Griffon a few decades later. I am sure the program worked out fine for them. However, history has proven that outcross was not necessary.

My biggest issue with this whole thread became is an e collar stimulation or shock. I think that misses the original posters point was bigger than that.

I am no expert on Force Fetch, but I have had the experience of doing it under the tutledge of some folks who are experts. Nobody, portrays this as Ed did.

FF is first about getting the dog to bend to your will.
Second it is about delivering pressure and then praise at the appropriate times.

It is broken down into step by step, so the dog clearly understands the command. Using an e collar allows the dog to understand the exact moment it makes a mistake. For instance the moment that a dog gets out of the water with a duck in its mouth. How many dogs get out of the water, drop the duck and then shake, pick up the duck and bring it to you. That is a deduction in the Utility test. How then do you teach the dog that drop and shake is wrong when you are too far away? Yell at the dog? If the dog is e collar trained hit it with a nick during training and it instantly knows that is not acceptable.

All dogs get to a point where they are going to say, in dog language, f- you I am not doing that. It is at that point that the dog must not win. From that point on the dog knows you are the Alpha. Ff forms a foundation for that and many other aspects of training.
Meridiandave
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:44 pm

Meridian dave.
Yes!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:15 pm

Meridiandave wrote:
All dogs get to a point where they are going to say, in dog language, f- you I am not doing that. It is at that point that the dog must not win. From that point on the dog knows you are the Alpha. Ff forms a foundation for that and many other aspects of training.


If that's true, why didn't they learn that lesson on sit, down, whoa, kennel, table, heel, and every other basic obedience lesson your dog should have learned before FF??
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Meridiandave » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:48 pm

Misskiwi67...I don't disagree with you at all that those activities are very important in establishing our self as Alpha.

My points come from 4 local NAHVDA trains who all said that FF is necessary for producing a utility dog. Further each trainer pointed out specific points in the FF training where the dog would fight back. They all proved to be right and their answer was same. You cannot let the dog win.

The second comment comes from my training buddy. He is good friends with Bob Farris. My friend was discussing whether to proceed with Force to Pile. Bob told him that every dog he has ever FF balked at force to pile. My friend said that he told him that after the fifth or sixth bumper, the dog would just get the idea that they would not go get the next one. He stated winning at this point was critical and he didn't consider a dog to be FF till it got to that point. Bob's advice to my friend was prophetic because both dogs did that. It was also prophetic that once we got past that point everything became easier in all aspects of training.

So pretty much I am going to stick with it.
Meridiandave
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:21 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Meridiandave wrote:
All dogs get to a point where they are going to say, in dog language, f- you I am not doing that. It is at that point that the dog must not win. From that point on the dog knows you are the Alpha. Ff forms a foundation for that and many other aspects of training.


If that's true, why didn't they learn that lesson on sit, down, whoa, kennel, table, heel, and every other basic obedience lesson your dog should have learned before FF??


Because many if not most times those commands are taught by repetition and treats, not force.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:37 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
Meridiandave wrote:
All dogs get to a point where they are going to say, in dog language, f- you I am not doing that. It is at that point that the dog must not win. From that point on the dog knows you are the Alpha. Ff forms a foundation for that and many other aspects of training.


If that's true, why didn't they learn that lesson on sit, down, whoa, kennel, table, heel, and every other basic obedience lesson your dog should have learned before FF??


Because many if not most times those commands are taught by repetition and treats, not force.


Obedience is obedience- it should all be taught using the same principles, and held to the same standards.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby ryanr » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:31 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
Meridiandave wrote:
All dogs get to a point where they are going to say, in dog language, f- you I am not doing that. It is at that point that the dog must not win. From that point on the dog knows you are the Alpha. Ff forms a foundation for that and many other aspects of training.


If that's true, why didn't they learn that lesson on sit, down, whoa, kennel, table, heel, and every other basic obedience lesson your dog should have learned before FF??


Because many if not most times those commands are taught by repetition and treats, not force.


Obedience is obedience- it should all be taught using the same principles, and held to the same standards.[/quote]

Sure but Force Fetch is so much more than just obedience. None of those other commands put nearly the same pressure on a dog as the Force Fetch "Fully Trained Retrieve" process does and that's the point IMO.
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2107
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Chadwick » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:31 pm

ryanr wrote:Sure but Force Fetch is so much more than just obedience. None of those other commands put nearly the same pressure on a dog as the Force Fetch "Fully Trained Retrieve" process does and that's the point IMO.


Those other commands don't involve the same pressure because most trainers don't train those commands with the same level of pressure. If you wanted to train sit with a lot of pressure such that your dog would sit in the middle of a pile of bunnies jumping around and ducks waddling all over the place, it would involve a lot of pressure.
Chadwick
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 pm

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby ryanr » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:56 pm

Chadwick wrote:
ryanr wrote:Sure but Force Fetch is so much more than just obedience. None of those other commands put nearly the same pressure on a dog as the Force Fetch "Fully Trained Retrieve" process does and that's the point IMO.


Those other commands don't involve the same pressure because most trainers don't train those commands with the same level of pressure. If you wanted to train sit with a lot of pressure such that your dog would sit in the middle of a pile of bunnies jumping around and ducks waddling all over the place, it would involve a lot of pressure.


Ifs and Buts. The reason they use that much pressure in teaching Force Fetch is because it's needed. In the versatile dog world, I'd say the conservation of shot game is of the utmost importance. Therefore it is necessary to ensure that the dog does not balk at completing the retrieve, no matter the conditions.
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2107
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:51 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:

If that's true, why didn't they learn that lesson on sit, down, whoa, kennel, table, heel, and every other basic obedience lesson your dog should have learned before FF??


Because many if not most times those commands are taught by repetition and treats, not force.


Obedience is obedience- it should all be taught using the same principles, and held to the same standards.[/quote]

Depends on age.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby crackerd » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:37 pm

Chadwick wrote:
ryanr wrote:Sure but Force Fetch is so much more than just obedience. None of those other commands put nearly the same pressure on a dog as the Force Fetch "Fully Trained Retrieve" process does and that's the point IMO.


Those other commands don't involve the same pressure because most trainers don't train those commands with the same level of pressure. If you wanted to train sit with a lot of pressure such that your dog would sit in the middle of a pile of bunnies jumping around and ducks waddling all over the place, it would involve a lot of pressure.


Chadwick, you're right, "If you wanted to train sit with a lot of pressure such that your dog would sit in the middle of a pile of bunnies jumping around and ducks waddling all over the place, it would involve a lot of pressure" - and you would want to see that pressure would manifest itself in competitive retriever events. But it's not exclusive to retrievers, anybody with NAVHDA experience can tell you about that.

The idea behind "treating" basic obedience - as GH pointed out how it's done for retrievers - is so they can learn to handle pressure when it is applied by vocal command, e-collar or combination of the two. And while we're at it about pressure, "handle" is also the operative word for why retrievers are force-fetched to begin with.

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:00 pm

Nah, when I say down, or whoa, I expect it to be obeyed. Fetch doesn't need more pressure.

Funny how You can get more with less when you are consistent.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Previous

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests