Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:11 pm

Yes trash breaking is the common exception and most of mine has been done at lower than max levels there as well. Most of that pertained to deer and I did not want to leave such a distrust in the dog, that I could not get them to track blood trails and like it...
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Huntin4fun » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:08 pm

Another newbie here that doesn't understand what is so incorrect about the way he describes it. I attended a force fetch clinic in which it appeared to go exactly like he said. Inflict discomfort until the dog does want the handler wants it to do. Repeat until eventually no discomfort is needed because the dog learns to avoid it all together...what am I missing?
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:32 pm

Level of collar depends on the electrical tolerance of the individual dog. The pup I am working now NEVER requires more than high 2 and that very, very, rarely. Back in the days of the 70, all dog's were broken at the highest intensity. I have seen more than one lab sit down and scratch his neck like a flea was biting him, showing no reaction other than mild curiosity. Other dogs would scream and roll on the ground. All depends on what each dog tolerates, each is different. The old 70 is what gave collars a bad name and people today still don't seem to understand that today, it is the single most effective and humane training tool available.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:17 pm

The TT70. Isn't that the one with the separate plugs for the different settings? I don't know what most breeds tolerate, but, the old TT's would roll a hound in the dirt squealing without going very high.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:36 pm

That was the 80 HC. First of the variable intensity collars. Hated having to call the dog in to change plugs. Always lost the plugs too. I hj ink I still may have some sets of them.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:20 pm

Huntin4fun,

If the clinic you saw taught ecollar the same way that ed did, then thats wrong also.
I do use continuous stim as i explained, very short distance and only till the dog gets the concept. The problem is how he describes it, "Shock". We don't "Shock" the dog. We stimulate, and there is a difference.

I found the second part far worse, that somehow dogs that are ecolar trained lose their ability to function or what ever. Total rubbish and tells me he probably has not ever been really taught nor does he understand how to properly use the collar. He may have never ever been exposed to its proper use. If he's been only in the pointing dog world it is very likely he hasn't been expose to the correct use.

Lets see if this helps. We condition the dog with a variety of commands. We use the lowest level possible, but as much as needed. When we have a well conditioned dog, the ecollar actually becomes a very long leash. If you didn't have an ecollar and needed to stop your dog at 200 or more yards. You would probably wish you had a lead on the dog. If you did, a slight tug would all that would be required to get the dog to return or comply with the command. We sue the collar the same way. Tell the dog to sit and he doesn't he gets a reminder, Thats all I'm saying to him with the collar. Its not a punishment , its just "hey Im watching you, pay attention". so the description of the dog that cant be independent or function because it was ecollar trained is due only to how he has seen it used, improperly.

Well ecolar conditioned dogs are actually more confident in their work. Did this help?
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Huntin4fun » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:28 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Huntin4fun,

If the clinic you saw taught ecollar the same way that ed did, then thats wrong also.
I do use continuous stim as i explained, very short distance and only till the dog gets the concept. The problem is how he describes it, "Shock". We don't "Shock" the dog. We stimulate, and there is a difference.

I found the second part far worse, that somehow dogs that are ecolar trained lose their ability to function or what ever. Total rubbish and tells me he probably has not ever been really taught nor does he understand how to properly use the collar. He may have never ever been exposed to its proper use. If he's been only in the pointing dog world it is very likely he hasn't been expose to the correct use.

Lets see if this helps. We condition the dog with a variety of commands. We use the lowest level possible, but as much as needed. When we have a well conditioned dog, the ecollar actually becomes a very long leash. If you didn't have an ecollar and needed to stop your dog at 200 or more yards. You would probably wish you had a lead on the dog. If you did, a slight tug would all that would be required to get the dog to return or comply with the command. We sue the collar the same way. Tell the dog to sit and he doesn't he gets a reminder, Thats all I'm saying to him with the collar. Its not a punishment , its just "hey Im watching you, pay attention". so the description of the dog that cant be independent or function because it was ecollar trained is due only to how he has seen it used, improperly.

Well ecolar conditioned dogs are actually more confident in their work. Did this help?


Seems like a lot of people don't like the stigma of the word "shock", but potato/patato to me I guess?!?

I won't say I feel the trainer or his techniques I saw were "wrong" considering his vast accomplishments, but out of the 2 demonstrations that day I would say that he was certainly the firmer/more aggressive of the two. The second trainer used the toe-hold method with what was a very cooperative dog so it was literally both ends of the spectrum. The first dog was getting a lot more than "stimulation" in the eyes of everyone there.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:01 pm

huntn4fun.

Thats the reason I didint like how he used the term shock. A shock is just that. I will shock a dog. when he's headed towards a porcupine. I have witnessed 5 porcupine bites. My one dog got 3 before i caught her trying to get number 4. She never tried again.

But what are using mostly is stimulation. It is not painful to the dog, they are not vocalizing.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:10 am

No, you shock the dog. Just because it isn't PC doesn't mean that isn't what you are doing.

You are applying electric stimulus to the dogs skin. Level doesn't matter. Static electricity is still called a "shock"

Quit being such a baby about the verbiage and accept that electricity = shock. I'm a softer trainer than you are but I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:13 am

Kiger2 wrote:
But what are using mostly is stimulation. It is not painful to the dog, they are not vocalizing.


I could give 100 examples of dogs hit by cars, with ACL tears, cancer and more that were excruciatingly painful and never vocalized. Vocalization is a startle response in the dog, not an indication of the level of pain.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby hicntry » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:56 am

Depends on the dog as to why he might vocalize. I could turn a collar on high and get no vocalization from my dogs, yet, I can have a dog pitch a fit on the lowest setting.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:12 pm

Misskiwi,

If theres no difference, then why did they develope ecollars with multiple levels ?????????????

Im not afraid at to call a spade a spade. What you are doing is trying to place a negative context on a method because it makes you feel superior about your "clicking". Nothing more, nothing less. It is obvious that there distinct differences between using ecollar stimulation and "shocking " the dog. Static electricity can actually be very painful. Depends on the charge i would think. Also, if you have paid any attention at all, you know that I will "shock" the dog with an ecollar. Chasing a porcupine, rattle snake , or heading towards the road and refusing the whistle. Its actually the pablum sucking pukes who think they are morally superior because they maintain that all an ecollar can do is "shock" and screw up a dog. . Gosh did I "shock" you with that statement or perhaps just "stimulate" discussion????

Ill give you a choice, you can hold a pro 100 set to level 2 on your hand or you can grab an electric fence. Which is the greater "shock"? And if you did grab both, how would you describe them afterwards. Most people would describe the ecollar as "tingling", very few would describe the electric fence as anything but a shock or perhaps "zapped'.

Heres a good example. My 7 month old golden comes to me and sits with her head up whenever she sees the ecollar come up. she knows we are going to go train. But every time she touches the electric fence she screams like crazy and never goes back to that part of the fence. I the evidence is really overwhelming and its irrational to argue that theres no difference between a stimulation and a shock.

Mr. Ed was obviously trying to paint the same picture as about the ecollar as you. That its a "shock", and its abusive and it causes all kinds of issues for a dog. Complete BS. And clearly demonstrates his lack go understanding about the proper use of the collar.

Hundreds of dogs hit by a car and not vocalize? Really, you have been on scene and witnessed hundreds of dogs get hit significantly by a car and not vocalize?? I suggest you stop driving!. I worked at busy fire department for 34 years. I imagine Ive seen hundreds of people with significant trauma injuries, very few of them were vocalizing when we arrived on scene. Doesn't mean they didn't scream at first!

I get that you maybe have used the green book and are trying to support Mr. Ed. I suspect theres some useful info in it. But I would disregard the section on ecollar training. It was written 1974 for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!

Hycntry, you are describing dogs that are on the far ends of the spectrum, What we are talking about here is dog training in general.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby hicntry » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:31 pm

"Hycntry, you are describing dogs that are on the far ends of the spectrum, What we are talking about here is dog training in general."

"Sorry" I thought we were discussing the why's and why not's for a dog vocalizing or not with different levels of shock when using an e-collar. AND, of course they should take down all statues of Washington, Jefferson and anyone else that the certifiable whack jobs can conjure up any justification for.....or....leave the confederate alone. It is just as much history as a shock is a shock!!! :wink:
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:44 pm

Kiger, I use an ecollar - quite regularly. Electricity is also used for many medical therapies including drug treatment and muscle stimulation. That doesn't mean it's not electricity.

I just don't pretend it's something other than what it is so I can also pretend over-use doesn't have consequences. It's a (low level) electric shock and by calling it what it is I remind myself to use it minimally.

Work the medical profession for 10 years and yeah, I see more than 10 dogs hit by cars a year. It's not rocket science. PS, dogs walk on injuries that make humans cry. It's not that their pain tolerance is astronomical, it's just that they show pain in more subtle ways - generally NOT by vocalizing.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:55 pm

Everyone is kind of right here. I think the problem is how we think of "shock". The correct definition is, any electricity being run through you. Problem is, most of us think of "shock" as a jolt and it isn't, period. My chiropractor used to use "shock" pads on my back muscles and it felt great.

It is just that when you say "shock" it denotes one thing, stimulation, which I feel is a more correct term, denotes a totally different thing. Anyone that hates ecollars always says "shock" so people think you are knocking the dog off it's feet. Stimulation denotes an acceptable correction, "shock" mean's gettin' da chair.
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