Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Camocruzr » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:43 pm

By Dr Ed Bailey MSc. PhD. Professor Emeritus Animal Behavior - University of Guelph.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:43 pm

Camocruzr wrote:By Dr Ed Bailey MSc. PhD. Professor Emeritus Animal Behavior - University of Guelph.


And???? Doesn't mean he knows squat about the ecollar and his article clearly shows he doesn't. If you read Gun Dog regularly, even his stuff on dog behavior is not widely adhered to. The article says it all, no matter who the jerk is.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:02 pm

Got no dog in this fight and don't get into discussions regarding specialized dog training. Don't know who Ed Bailey is and don't read Gun Dog magazine. I do have an idea how far astray credentialed folks have taken the dog world. The Coppingers, a husband and wife team of animal behaviorists. I believe they are the ones that sold the bill of goods that chasing balls and other inanimate objects was associated with prey drive. They were so effective at delivering this BS that everyone, bar none to this day in he protection dog world, judges their young dog prospects buy how aggressively they chase balls. If you are raising pups for the purpose of protection and want them to sell like hot cakes, introduce those pups to "the ball" because it is a learned behavior.

OK, since the process starts on day one, the Super Dog Program had to be developed by animal behaviorists. Why, they were so good they perpetrated the most
unbelievable fraud on the US military for something that never worked

Then Battaglia wrote a book on how to produce better puppies.....largely based on the Super Dog Program that never worked. What effect did the Super Dog Scam have on today's dog owners and breeders? They still believe that BS....to the point that there are a lot of breeders with websites that state they use the Super Dog Program.

Yep these people all came with great credentials and people still buy into the BS they were selling years ago. I could go on, but, y'all get the idea.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Chadwick » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:11 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:An ecollar doesn't shock a dog, it stimulates. It's the same sensation in low-mid levels a Chiropractor uses on your muscles. Actually, it's a pleasant sensation at low levels. Not so pleasant at high levels. With todays modern ecollars and a competent user, there should never be a shock. In fact, I don't think the collar is capable of an actual shock. IMO.

The man is a total incompetent in any discussion of an force or mechanical stimulation method.


E-collars, or electrical collars, are based off of using shock. Shock refers to having electrical current running through tissue, no matter how small the current. So Bailey is correct in using that term. Not using shock to describe was is happening when the button is pushed shows how effective the marketing of the e-collar companies has been. Even that the word electric has been shorted to e.

And in SmartFetch in the collar conditioning section, it says that if "the dog appears reluctant to fetch, as the bumper gets closer to the floor, try a heavier nick..." which to me sounds like applying shock to the dog to get it to go in the direction that you want and do the desired thing.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:29 am

Chadwick wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:An ecollar doesn't shock a dog, it stimulates. It's the same sensation in low-mid levels a Chiropractor uses on your muscles. Actually, it's a pleasant sensation at low levels. Not so pleasant at high levels. With todays modern ecollars and a competent user, there should never be a shock. In fact, I don't think the collar is capable of an actual shock. IMO.

The man is a total incompetent in any discussion of an force or mechanical stimulation method.


E-collars, or electrical collars, are based off of using shock. Shock refers to having electrical current running through tissue, no matter how small the current. So Bailey is correct in using that term. Not using shock to describe was is happening when the button is pushed shows how effective the marketing of the e-collar companies has been. Even that the word electric has been shorted to e.

And in SmartFetch in the collar conditioning section, it says that if "the dog appears reluctant to fetch, as the bumper gets closer to the floor, try a heavier nick..." which to me sounds like applying shock to the dog to get it to go in the direction that you want and do the desired thing.


The bonehead forgets to add the part that before the ecollar is used, the dog has been thoroughly trained without it. That is, like a stick or leash, is but a reinforcement to a command. When a dog is properly trained before the collar is introduced, there is very little electricity needed to reinforce any command.

The term "ecollar" came from the shortening of "electronic training collar", not through any negativity associated with it. I hope all of the advertisers pull their adds from Gun Dog. They are having a hard time surviving as it it.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby ryanr » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:15 am

Articles are typically longer than one paragraph so my take is there's probably more to this in the rest of the article.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:39 am

ryanr wrote:Articles are typically longer than one paragraph so my take is there's probably more to this in the rest of the article.


You would be kind of right, it's two paragraphs and you're reading the end of it. It's pretty much posted in it's entirety.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby crackerd » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:05 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The bonehead forgets to add the part that before the ecollar is used, the dog has been thoroughly trained without it.


GH, that is not a universally-known fact, particularly throughout the pointing dog world and its versatile adjuncts that use "shock collars."

Just like this from an earlier post is a misunderstood facet of force fetch:

Force Fetch in and of itself says a lot. You are forcing the dog to do something it more than likely doesn't want to do.


Show me one in 1,000 retrievers that doesn't want to retrieve - yet 999 in 1,000 competitive retrievers are force-fetched. How do you explain that? Because force fetch is about bending their "will" to retrieve as we want them to, NOT about forcing them to retrieve because they don't want to.

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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby JTracyII » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:09 am

Gonehuntin,

You seem pretty fired up. I agree that the article is poorly written, but I am "shocked" by the fact that you don't think collars are capable of shocking and only stimulating. Your e-collar may not be working properly if you have tried the highest levels of your e-collar on your forearm and you still believe this. :D Let us know how it goes... :lol:
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Chadwick » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:23 pm

JTracyII wrote:Gonehuntin,

You seem pretty fired up. I agree that the article is poorly written, but I am "shocked" by the fact that you don't think collars are capable of shocking and only stimulating. Your e-collar may not be working properly if you have tried the highest levels of your e-collar on your forearm and you still believe this. :D Let us know how it goes... :lol:


If you think max hurts on your forearm, try your neck. It is way worse than on your forearm.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:34 pm

I have never used testers on my collars, I simply hold the collar next to my ear and push the button. You can hear the buzz, which is where the term "buzz them with the collar" comes from. One very hot, sweaty day, I hurriedly put a collar next to my ear and buzzed it. Problem was, it arced across to my hair. It was in the days of the 70. Nuff' said.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:36 pm

Chadwick wrote:
JTracyII wrote:Gonehuntin,

You seem pretty fired up. I agree that the article is poorly written, but I am "shocked" by the fact that you don't think collars are capable of shocking and only stimulating. Your e-collar may not be working properly if you have tried the highest levels of your e-collar on your forearm and you still believe this. :D Let us know how it goes... :lol:


If you think max hurts on your forearm, try your neck. It is way worse than on your forearm.


Do you whip yourself, pinch your ear on a shotshell or choke yourself with a choke chain? Why in the world would ANYONE buzz themselves on a high level on their neck with a collar? I don't shoot myself or run myself over with cars either.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Chadwick » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:48 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Chadwick wrote:
JTracyII wrote:Gonehuntin,

You seem pretty fired up. I agree that the article is poorly written, but I am "shocked" by the fact that you don't think collars are capable of shocking and only stimulating. Your e-collar may not be working properly if you have tried the highest levels of your e-collar on your forearm and you still believe this. :D Let us know how it goes... :lol:


If you think max hurts on your forearm, try your neck. It is way worse than on your forearm.


Do you whip yourself, pinch your ear on a shotshell or choke yourself with a choke chain? Why in the world would ANYONE buzz themselves on a high level on their neck with a collar? I don't shoot myself or run myself over with cars either.


I don't use e-collars anymore, but when I did, I wanted to know exactly what it was like if I was going to choose to use it on a dog at that level.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:59 pm

I hope/think we all have learned to teach a dog a command before overlaying the ecollar. And then we use the lowest level of stimulation that will help the dog remember the command is non-negotiable as well as they are in control of when the stimulation turns on and off.

In 3 decades of using ecollars, my training has been done with levels 2 or 3 ninety percent of the time with a very occasional burst to 4 on some dogs. That on a scale of 1-7 using TT products.

Discussion of max level stimulation is out of place in my experience. Hope I can always say that.

P.S. I dropped my subscript to Gun Dog a long time ago. Very low value compared to the original team that put it together.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Chadwick » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:09 pm

AverageGuy wrote:In 3 decades of using ecollars, my training has been done with levels 2 or 3 ninety percent of the time with a very occasionally burst to 4 on some dogs. That on a scale of 1-7 using TT products.

Discussion of max level stimulation is out of place in my experience. Hope I can always say that.


I would never used max for training. I had one dog that was a cattle chaser and max on a pro500 would get him to sit and stop chasing.
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