Stubborn Dog FF

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:15 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Did the trainer teach her to hold birds ????? If so send her back, she needs some more work, or perhaps he needs to have you work the dog to make sure his work has transferred to you.

When ever I say fetch she picks it up either bird or bumper and says hold till i say drop
Runningwild
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:35 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:44 pm

Runningwild,
the reason we FF is so that we can correct and CURE issues. If the dog is dropping the bird and the picking up when you say fetch, well thats part of the solution, but the dog should learn ver quickly, that dropping is not an option. Perhaps, "Hold" was not as thorough as needed???

Lets use this example. Dogs gets out of the water and drops whatever, if dog has been FF properly, it should get a "fetch" with ecollar correction. It should quickly realize that dropping is not an option. when dog returns to heel after getting out of water and drops at your side to shake, then "fetch" with ecollar correction. This is somethingtha is quickly cleaned up.

Ive been paid to train dogs for guys. If they said they were having your issue i would take the dog back and fix it no charge.

Gonehuntin,

Please read my posts carefully and answer the questions, they are specific.

Graham does not use jowl pinch. So is graham carr based or not???

I completely understand how the jowl pinch works. I could use it during FF, I get the same reaction from Using the ear pinch for hold. I just don't think pinching the jaw is beneficial. So is Dobbs method wrong for using pressure to reinforce hold ? Graham says he knows of no significant trainer that uses pressure for reinforcing hold.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:18 am

Kiger2 wrote:
Gonehuntin,

Please read my posts carefully and answer the questions, they are specific.

Graham does not use jowl pinch. So is graham carr based or not???

I completely understand how the jowl pinch works. I could use it during FF, I get the same reaction from Using the ear pinch for hold. I just don't think pinching the jaw is beneficial. So is Dobbs method wrong for using pressure to reinforce hold ? Graham says he knows of no significant trainer that uses pressure for reinforcing hold.


So, you can't be so narrow minded to think that because ONE part, a very small part of a program is not used, it is not based on that program? Really? Much of what Evan does is far different from Rex if you are familiar with the true Carr programs. Remember, the modern programs are BASED on Carr, they are not IDENTICAL to Carr. Same with Farmer, Lardy, etc. They are BASED but not identical to the programs.

The reason no one liked Dobbs using the ear for hold is that FETCH is DRIVING command, not a stationary command. FETCH demands forward motion. EVERY trainer uses pressure to reinforce hold. If you take a dropped dowel place it back in the dog's mouth, and tap the lower jaw commanding HOLD, you are using pressure. Evan does this very thing. Every trainer, everywhere, uses pressure to reinforce hold, they do not use significant pain.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Chadwick » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:01 am

Kiger2 wrote:Lets use this example. Dogs gets out of the water and drops whatever, if dog has been FF properly, it should get a "fetch" with ecollar correction. It should quickly realize that dropping is not an option. when dog returns to heel after getting out of water and drops at your side to shake, then "fetch" with ecollar correction.


If the dog was FF properly, why is it dropping?
Chadwick
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby crackerd » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:10 am

Chadwick wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:Lets use this example. Dogs gets out of the water and drops whatever, if dog has been FF properly, it should get a "fetch" with ecollar correction. It should quickly realize that dropping is not an option. when dog returns to heel after getting out of water and drops at your side to shake, then "fetch" with ecollar correction.


If the dog was FF properly, why is it dropping?


Because dogs aren't very good multi-taskers? In short, this is not a "properly (or not) FF" issue. Retrievers are trained to shake (off) on command - to rid their coats of water before they're sent for the next bird. Before they learn this "shake" command - and before they've been taught not to drop a bird at water's edge after exiting or at a handler's side upon returning, they will often put a bird or bumper down before they shake off. After they're trained to shake - and trained to come directly back to the handler after exiting water, not so much - never say never, but it doesn't happen often, and hardly ever with a bird. And if it does, I'm not someone who corrects it with the e-collar, because it's been pretty well documented that there are other shall we say deleterious consequences from using an e-collar in the close proximity of the handler.

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:40 pm

Crackered gave an excellent explanation. FF dogs will rarely drop when they are not supposed to hold. But as Crackered described, getting out of the water and not holding while shaking is very common, it is easily corrected.
I disagree about not using the ecollar for this correction. It is one of the major benefits of FF.

Chadwick.

A properly FF dog gives one the tools to correct for these types of issues. Without FF you don't have the tools. Another misunderstanding about FF.

Gonehuntin, you are pretty funny. I am not narrow-minded at all. It is pretty apparent that slapping a dog on the nose is much different form of pressure than a jowl pinch.

You should really get familiar with dobbs method again since its clear you don't know what he's doing, Dobbs uses the ear pinch only for hold. A stationary command. An ear pinch by itself does not impart momentum any more than slapping a nose or pinching a jowl. And as far as reinforcing "hold" properly timing the jowl pinch would be far better for the dog to understand than smacking its jaw or nose. Its actually as I said very similar to the ear pinch as far the timing and release of pressure. I just don't like pinching the jowl for reasons stated earlier.

Lastly, I think your the ones thats narrow-minded. You cant seem to grasp that the ear pinch could possibly be used for something other than "fetch" and you cant acknowledge that Dobbs method is actually just as effective as anyone else's.

Dobbs uses the toe hitch to initially reinforce "Fetch" because the dog is naturally inclined to move towards the pressure placed on the toes. Since the dog already understands how to turn off various forms of pressure, the quickly undestarnds to "Reach" for the object to turn pressure off. The toe hitch is used for only few sessions until the transition to ecollar is achieved.

Like I said, you're funny!!!!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby hicntry » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:14 pm

Thread brings back some memories of the Airedale Field Nationals. A pro trainer was bought in to give a seminar on FF'ing. Went great. Put the Airedale on the table and proceeding showing how it is done. Pinched the dogs ear and was immediately taken to the hospital to have his hand sewed up and fingers set. Lesson learned.....get to know the dog BEFORE you pinch em.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3574
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:35 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Gonehuntin, you are pretty funny. I am not narrow-minded at all. It is pretty apparent that slapping a dog on the nose is much different form of pressure than a jowl pinch. [/qoute]

Why the hell would I ever slap a dog on the nose and create a hand shy dog you can't give a line to?


Kiger2 wrote: You should really get familiar with dobbs method again since its clear you don't know what he's doing, Dobbs uses the ear pinch only for hold. A stationary command. An ear pinch by itself does not impart momentum any more than slapping a nose or pinching a jowl. And as far as reinforcing "hold" properly timing the jowl pinch would be far better for the dog to understand than smacking its jaw or nose. Its actually as I said very similar to the ear pinch as far the timing and release of pressure. I just don't like pinching the jowl for reasons stated earlier.


Good lord, you really do understand little at all. Just what reason did you state for not liking the jowl pinch?

Kiger2 wrote:Lastly, I think your the ones thats narrow-minded. You cant seem to grasp that the ear pinch could possibly be used for something other than "fetch" and you cant acknowledge that Dobbs method is actually just as effective as anyone else's.


Really? Where did I ever say the ear pinch could be used for nothing but fetch? As far as effectiveness, guess that's why so many pro's use Dobb's method huh?

Kiger2 wrote: Dobbs uses the toe hitch to initially reinforce "Fetch" because the dog is naturally inclined to move towards the pressure placed on the toes. Since the dog already understands how to turn off various forms of pressure, the quickly undestarnds to "Reach" for the object to turn pressure off. The toe hitch is used for only few sessions until the transition to ecollar is achieved.


Do you really think no one understands the toe hitch but you? You do realize Dobb's didn't invent it don't you? Pointing dog trainers have been using it forever. We used it 40 years ago and discarded it for the ear. You really should get out more.

Also, no where did I say the ear pinch imparts or momentum. I said fetch is a driving command. May come from jowl, ear, stick or collar.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Willie T » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:31 pm

I do exactly as Gonehuntin. Kiger, I think you are misinterpreting the jowl pinch. It is a mild way to open the dogs mouth with very minimal pressure, yet have total control. I would say it is less pressure than lightly chucking under the lower jaw teaching hold, and a very effective means to teach the dog the meaning of "fetch". It is an intermediate step so that when more formal pressure is applied the dog has learned beforehand exactly what you are telling it do, and thus requires LESS formal pressure, because there is less confusion, to achieve the desired response.
I believe good dog men who are insightful, will get a dog through FF with minimal hiccups, and achieve the desired outcome, simply because they fully understand what they are trying to convey and accomplish, and how they will use it down the road, regardless of the program. There are also those who are going to struggle at FF and must lean heavily on a structured program to understand what they are doing, and would benefit greatly from the insight of a mentor.
Willie
Willie T
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:07 pm

Willie T,

Let me see if I can put you at ease. Gonehuntin is arguing for the sake of arguing. How do you even know what he doesn't like about Dobb smethod because he has never stated it??? Perhaps its because it does work?????

Gonehuntin is applying pressure to get the dog to open its mouth. Dobbs uses the ear pinch to make dropping the object uncomfortable. Its no more tormenting than the jowl pinch. It requires no action of the dog.The dog will soon start reaching for the object because it understands that getting the object in the mouth turns off the pressure. We are not applying pressure first. You don't hit the ecollar before you say sit do you? We are merely teaching the dog to turn off pressure by holding the object. Its no different than sit or heel or anything else. Tell the dog to sit and if it doesn't it gets a correction. You don't pinch is jowl first and then say sit do you? Now of course the dog being pretty good at figuring things out will eventually figure out whats wanted.

So what we have learned from gonehuntin is that every program is carr based, but they are all different. If that is the case, then Dobbs must also be Carr based correct?

And Willie T, i will give you the same challenge I give every one. Please explain how dobbs program does not work or is harmful? Cause i have a bunch of dogs who say it does work and does no harm. And no one has ever given any evidence that it does not work, or is harmful.

Again, my take is this. Dobbs is easier for new people to FF.

Gonehuntin,

I don't like the jowl pinch because i don't want to put pressure on the dogs mouth unless it has to be done. If you taught tme to hold something by pinching my jowl I would probably want to hit you every time you put your hand near me. Thats what i don't like about it.

Please explain how the toe hitch as used by Dobbs is not appropriate?

See your problem is , you never explain anything, yopu just say things like the toe hitch was abandoned 40 years ago (not true) or something similar. You cant effectively argue a point by trying to demean it.

You see dobbs realized the dog has a natural tendency to reach towards pressure. Sqeeuze a foot, pull their hair, pinch their ear and the dog will turn towards the pressure. When dobbs is ready For "fetch" he uses the toe hitch because the dog will NATURALLY move towards the toe where the object is being held. So as you admit, the ear pinch does not impart motion, neither does the jowl pinch. The toe hitch does.

But the toe hitch DOES cause motion. We take that small motion and reinforce with the collar. And if "Fetch"

Never said Dobbs invented the toe hitch. Please dont confuse folks with random statement.What dobbs did do is realize what the dogs react to the toe hitch was and how to use it effectively.

Seems to me you are the one that should have an open mind. Please no more stories about how we didi it 40 years ago or how no pros use dobbs method ,,,,,just stick to the facts.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:43 am

Kiger2 wrote:
Gonehuntin,

I don't like the jowl pinch because i don't want to put pressure on the dogs mouth unless it has to be done. If you taught tme to hold something by pinching my jowl I would probably want to hit you every time you put your hand near me. Thats what i don't like about it.


You see, you don't understand the jowl. You don't pinch it to teach hold, you pinch it to gently teach the dog to open it's mouth. The dog learns that on the command "fetch" it pops it's mouth open. I have never seen a dog develop a hand aversion through a simple jowl pinch. It is so much easier and less stressful on the dog. You have to get the dowel in the dog's mouth somehow; instead of just sticking it in there, you teach the dog to accept it.

Kiger2 wrote: Please explain how the toe hitch as used by Dobbs is not appropriate?


There are a number of things pro's don't like about the toe hitch and I'm not going to argue it with you, I'm telling you since YOU asked:
1. It gets your face to close to the dog's mouth and makes getting bitten more likely.
2. By not gripping the ear, you have no means of protecting yourself or guiding the dog's head, or forward movement.
3. You don't have to carry a piece of cord with you in the field to reinforce hold. A simple pinch of the ear is easy and fast.
4. Dog's love having their ears rubbed and hate having their feet touched.

[qoute="Kiger2"] So as you admit, the ear pinch does not impart motion, neither does the jowl pinch. The toe hitch does.[/quote]

I never said that about either motion. Both pressures do in fact cause forward pressure when taught. First comes opening the mouth (jowl pinch) then comes forward motion (ear pinch). Actually, nice forward motion begins with the jowl pinch. In fact, as I've stated before, a total FF can be done using jaw alone.

Kiger2 wrote: But the toe hitch DOES cause motion. We take that small motion and reinforce with the collar. And if "Fetch"

Never said Dobbs invented the toe hitch. Please dont confuse folks with random statement.What dobbs did do is realize what the dogs react to the toe hitch was and how to use it effectively.

Seems to me you are the one that should have an open mind. Please no more stories about how we didi it 40 years ago or how no pros use dobbs method ,,,,,just stick to the facts.


Toe hitch does create motion but it is uncontrolled. With the ear you have total control of the dog. You have a way of stating things that makes readers think it was Dobb's invented them. Confusing. And incidentally, how we did it 40 years ago is still the way it's being done today.

One reason I have no use for the Dobbs method is that I never saw Dobb's win anything including a minor stake. It is also why no pro I'm aware of today used his method. Perhaps you can tell us of one successful pro that uses his method? I mean, if it's so wonderful and productive, I'd think everyone would be using it. That's what happens with successful methods; everyone adopts them to win. Think about it.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Willie T » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:16 am

Kiger, if the handler is insightful, and knows where he is headed in training, and the path he will follow to to get there, he will get what he needs out of FF. Regardlesss of the program. I do not follow any written program verbatim. I learned what I do years ago. There was a small group of us that I used to train with at Farmers, which is about an hour drive from me.
We were training retrievers to a very high standard. I have yet to see anyone ask nearly as much from a versatile, as far as retrieving skills go, although I'm certain the right dog could do the work. In the end we all use what we feel works best, and hopefully adapt it to fit our training. As to what is most effective in my opinion...... The proof is in the puddin'.
Willie
Willie T
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Previous

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MadisonGriff and 5 guests