Stubborn Dog FF

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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:27 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:So you started using e-collar pressure on the dog without ANY other collar conditioning training prior??

No wonder your dog is confused. Your dog has no idea how to turn the pressure off, and no previous experience with the e-collar to help him.

Everyone always seems to forget to mention that you shoving the dummy in the dogs mouth, and the dog willingly reaching for it are two VERY different behaviors. One is you doing something to the dog and the other is the dog doing something for himself. Until your dog understands you want him to take the dummy from him, he hasn't got a clue how to turn the pressure off.

Find a way to helping him. He's not stubborn, he's confused, and rightly so.


Jon does an excellent job explaining this in the DVDs. A full reading of the OP's posts around their attempts to train this dog FF reveal it has gone on for 5 months.

Time to stop and bring in an expert. Which might be free of charge at a training day at least to start. Someone versed in FF needs to get eyes on this situation for the dog's sake.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Densa44 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:16 am

I'm with the experts, these lessons can be very tough for a rookie, but not impossible. If there is anyway that you can spend some time with an experienced trainer, that will do you a world of good. The dog too.
I'm not going to give any more advice than what you already have been given.
Take your time and make sure you know what your plan is and how you are going to get to the objective. Keep it short and make it fun!
Good luck with all of this.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby ryanr » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:21 am

AverageGuy wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:So you started using e-collar pressure on the dog without ANY other collar conditioning training prior??

No wonder your dog is confused. Your dog has no idea how to turn the pressure off, and no previous experience with the e-collar to help him.

Everyone always seems to forget to mention that you shoving the dummy in the dogs mouth, and the dog willingly reaching for it are two VERY different behaviors. One is you doing something to the dog and the other is the dog doing something for himself. Until your dog understands you want him to take the dummy from him, he hasn't got a clue how to turn the pressure off.

Find a way to helping him. He's not stubborn, he's confused, and rightly so.


Jon does an excellent job explaining this in the DVDs. A full reading of the OP's posts around their attempts to train this dog FF reveal it has gone on for 5 months.

Time to stop and bring in an expert. Which might be free of charge at a training day at least to start. Someone versed in FF needs to get eyes on this situation for the dog's sake.


Absolutely. Been reading his replies and just shaking my head because it just doesn't add up. He may be trying to follow Hann's method but it doesn't seem like he understands it or what he's doing in regards to the goals of each step and how to read his dog.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:31 pm

thanks for all your input because of my lack of experience I'm going to get assistants from a highly recommend professional trainer and solve this problem
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Densa44 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:53 pm

Just a tip, ask lots of questions and make notes what the trainer says. The more questions the more everyone will get out of it. If you notice the trainer doing something that you haven't seen before ask what and why.

The questions will give the pro a better Idea where you are in your learning curve and be able to help you more.

Let us know how it goes, and if you run the dog in a NAVHDA test tell us about that too.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:22 am

Gonehuntin,
Thought I would check back IN AND YES YOU STILL DONT HAVE A CLUE!!!!

Doc,
You use toe hitch to teach the dog to reach, then transition to collar, so that when you are training in the field, you can reinforce with the ecollar. If you do this properly, you will never need to use physical correction for fetch.

I don't know Hans program, but there is no reason that you cant do FF with an e collar only. Using physical application of pressure teaches the dog he has to listen without the ecollar.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:00 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Gonehuntin,
Thought I would check back


To bad you did, people were receiving useful information in your welcomed absence.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:58 pm

Misskiwi, you are right and wrong, Not everyone forgets that "Hold" and "Fetch" are two distinct command and functions. Dobbs uses ear pressure to reinforce the hold. Object not in the mouth, pressure comes on until we place it in the dogs mouth. Dog not required to reach. Once again, the dog is NOT required to reach. We are just showing the dog the comparison between having the object in mouth (comfortable) object not in mouth, (uncomfortable).

And actually you could use an ecollar to reinforce hold and not the ear pinch. Its just pressure,. You know its electricity and not your fingers, the dog doesn't.
I use ear pinch in case I ever have to do a manual correction. Example , no Ecoallr on.

Dog learns that the pressure goes off when the object is in the mouth. Do multiple objects the dog gets a really good understanding of "Hold". And most will naturally start reaching for it. Then we can move to fetch.

Hold means hold, fetch means move to it. Dobbs uses the toes hitch with the dog stationary to teach the dog to "reach" you can see this on youtube. After dog is reaching for object we overlay ecollar with the command. Since t5he dog has already had lots of exposure to turning off pressure by having getting the object in it mouth. This is an easier transition to the movement command of "fetch".

Dobbs method isn't better because its dobbs method, its better because its well thought out.

IK think a lot of people that have more trouble FF dogs than Retrievers, would find this method easier on a dog.


Gonehuntin,
Who was providing the useful information???? I must have missed that post!!!!!!
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby fireman1293 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:24 pm

I have found that when doing the ear pinch it is easiest with a spent shot gun shell. Hold the brass on the back of the ear and pinch the ear with it. I found it difficult to always give good pressure with my fingers or trouble finding the collar buckle. It doesn't take as much pressure with a solid object such as a shell brass.
Good luck
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:32 am

Densa44 wrote:Just a tip, ask lots of questions and make notes what the trainer says. The more questions the more everyone will get out of it. If you notice the trainer doing something that you haven't seen before ask what and why.

The questions will give the pro a better Idea where you are in your learning curve and be able to help you more.

Let us know how it goes, and if you run the dog in a NAVHDA test tell us about that too.


Finally got her back from the trainer she is doing pretty good bumpers but is having problems with holding on to birds.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:32 am

Densa44 wrote:Just a tip, ask lots of questions and make notes what the trainer says. The more questions the more everyone will get out of it. If you notice the trainer doing something that you haven't seen before ask what and why.

The questions will give the pro a better Idea where you are in your learning curve and be able to help you more.

Let us know how it goes, and if you run the dog in a NAVHDA test tell us about that too.


Finally got her back from the trainer she is doing pretty good bumpers but is having problems with holding on to birds.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:42 pm

Did the trainer teach her to hold birds ????? If so send her back, she needs some more work, or perhaps he needs to have you work the dog to make sure his work has transferred to you.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:42 pm

Went back through this and something caught my eye.

Gonehuntin said "If you had used the Carr method, you have several basics steps to fall back on: jowl pinch, ear pinch, stick, ecollar. " What I find curious is you described the "Jowl" pinch in an earlier post and you attribute it to Carr. You also say Graham is Carr based. But I just reviewed my copy of smart fetch and found no mention of the Jowl pinch???? I don't recall anyone using the "Jowl " pinch other than you. Can you point me to another program that uses it?

Also, as matter of method and results, Is the Jowl pinch really any different than using the ear pinch for hold as Dobbs does??? Other than the fact that I wouldn't use the jowl pinch as it seems like it could lead to hand avoidance issues. But other than that its really no different than Dobbs, and much different than Graham.

Not sure how pressure on the jowl is any less pressure on the dog than ear pinch. Makes no sense?

Runnignwild,
To follow up a bit, if the dog has been thoroughly taught FF, the holding issue should be easy to correct. You should simply be able to command "fetch" with ecollar and the dog should get the bird in its mouth and realize dropping is not an option. But only if the dog is thoroughly prepared.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:22 pm

Think through it Kiger. The Jowl pinch predates Carr; it was done far earlier by Morgan and Wolters (D.L.). I would then suppose Carr adopted it to his program. With the jowl pinch, you pinch the jowl and place the bumper in the dog's mouth. You are creating pressure on the dog's mouth, opening it for him, inserting the dowel. Doesn't take long before when you just touch his jowl he pops his mouth open. Transition to the ear is then far easier because the dog has all ready learned how to turn off the pressure. It is the best system there is of starting a dog in to force. You should easily be able to reason that out.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:22 pm

Think through it Kiger. The Jowl pinch predates Carr; it was done far earlier by Morgan and Wolters (D.L.). I would then suppose Carr adopted it to his program. With the jowl pinch, you pinch the jowl and place the bumper in the dog's mouth. You are creating pressure on the dog's mouth, opening it for him, inserting the dowel. Doesn't take long before when you just touch his jowl he pops his mouth open. Transition to the ear is then far easier because the dog has all ready learned how to turn off the pressure. It is the best system there is of starting a dog in to force. You should easily be able to reason that out.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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