Stubborn Dog FF

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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Densa44 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:28 pm

I'd go with GH's advice if I were you. I use Rick Smith's toe pinch and no e-collar until I have the performance I want, then the e-collar.

Are you sure it is the dog resisting? Maybe she just doesn't get the lesson you are trying to teach.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:03 am

Ya I'm sure she allows me to put the pvc pipe in her mouth to shut off the stimulation but won't grab it and true to find another answer to shut it off

Thanks everyone for your answers I'm going to try the ear pinch and see what I can do
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:41 am

Hann is the most gifted dog trainer I have witnessed. His DVDs/Programs are excellent, very clear, and very thorough. So much so that they require a good bit of study and repetition to absorb and apply them.

Giving it all of a week and deciding to bail out based on the advice of internet posters who have not even viewed the DVD program you started, may well be a really bad move.

I frankly think it is irresponsible for posters to urge you to abandon a program they know nothing about and a dog they have never seen work.

I put my current GWP pup through the same program because I judged it fit his temperament the best and it has gone well, but it took considerably longer than a week and he most definitely tested me to see which of us was more committed.

Hope it works out for your dog's sake.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:46 pm

There's so many guys coming out with "New" programs that it's hard to keep track of them. The one thing they seem to pretty much all have in common is that they are Carr based. I don't know how Hahns differs from arex's, but it sounds like he's simply skipping the jowl and ear pinch " short cutting" the Carr program. If this is true, he's wrong.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby SMAbby » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:51 pm

Runningwild wrote:I'm following how hann does it


This may be so, but if she isnt ready to move on to the next step, you dont. You have to be able to read your dog and what needs to be done.
Is she stubborn, or not understanding? Is she soft? Or not understanding? It all requires a different approach.

I think that if she is not REACHING to shut off the pressure, than she is not clear on the rules. Cant imagine a dog likes to be stimmed.

Go to a training day and let a pro lay eyes on the problem and go from there.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:22 pm

Runningwild wrote:Ya I'm sure she allows me to put the pvc pipe in her mouth to shut off the stimulation but won't grab it and true to find another answer to shut it off

Thanks everyone for your answers I'm going to try the ear pinch and see what I can do


Don't try it without watching or reading a good program (Smart Fetch). It starts with the Joel then the ear.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:33 pm

Gotta say this thread does not add up.

Back on Feb 22, Runningwild posted on this board he was working on FF with this dog "'using Hann's method" teaching hold and overlaying stimulation with the dog vocalizing and refusing. In this thread he says he has been at it a week.

I have no idea what this dog is being put through (and neither does anyone else posting here), but I am comfortable saying it is not the intended method instructed in the DVDs.

My pup is very soft mouthed and would play with crippled birds, laying them down when he arrived close to me so he could chase em down again. And his interest in bumpers was hit and miss. We just came from our hot weather waterwork where he was pounding the water and swimming as fast as he could go for 100 yard + marked retrieves shot out of a Lucky Launcher II.

Which is no brag, just background to say there is nothing wrong with the method laid out in the DVDs. Rather than making this the normal back and forth as to who's FF program is the one and only way to train FF, how about we focus on how to help this PP pup out.

Runningwild, I suggest discontinuing further work and get someone experienced involved.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby mastercaster » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:58 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Runningwild wrote:Ya I'm sure she allows me to put the pvc pipe in her mouth to shut off the stimulation but won't grab it and true to find another answer to shut it off

Thanks everyone for your answers I'm going to try the ear pinch and see what I can do


Don't try it without watching or reading a good program (Smart Fetch). It starts with the jowl then the ear.


By the jowl, do mean holding your hand under her muzzle/jowl so the dog can not drop the paint roller, dowel? And then adding under the chin taps if she is dropping her head, starts to chew on it, or appears to want to drop it?

Because I didn't know exactly what program (DVD set) to get I ended up getting both Smart Fetch (Evans) and The Perfect Retrieve (Hann) and watched them both a couple of times. Before the FF business is all said and done I'm pretty sure I'll end up taking information from both of them to suit my needs and the dog. I like what I see from both DVD sets and I'm not experienced enough to know if one of them is going about the process better.

To prepare for the program I built myself a training table out of scrap lumber that I had like the ones Hann has in his videos because I find it easier to control the dog when her neck is strapped to a pole when she's in the standing position, plus I like the comfort of standing when doing it but I also tried Evan's way of doing it while sitting on a stool (he uses a big turned over pail). I'm using the paint roller (Evan) right now instead of plastic PVC (Hann) but I'll probably switch over soon.

My griff was only six months old when I started the hold a couple of weeks ago because we're going nice and slow with not too many repetitions in any one training session. We had to miss the odd day here and there. Hopefully I'm not starting too soon on this whole FF process with her. These past few days I've been using the ear pinch to start the fetch but I've only placed the paint roller right in front of her face (no reaching yet) instead of using the e-collar (Hann).

That being said, I've had my dog wearing the e-collar for the last month every time we do some training and even for walks the last month but never turned it on until recently. I started her on some recognizable stim for the things she knows how to do well (basic obedience) when there aren't any distractions like come, heel, sit so I'm pretty sure she knows how to turn off the stimulation. After I go through the ear pinch as the external force I hope to be able to add e-collar work to reinforce it unless I'm told she's too young.

I can only imaging how great it would be to work along side a pro who's done these techniques with a pointing dog before but I'm pretty sure I'll have to do it on my own. I just hope I can do it without making any major training errors so I'm all ears if you want to pipe in and tell me if I'm doing something wrong, what to do instead, or to give any other helpful advice.

BTW, I should mention when I retired this past fall I spent a few months researching what kind of dog to get and which kennel to get her from and just what it entailed. I also went into it knowing I was going to put a lot of effort into training her after I picked her up but we're both new at it so we're learning the ropes together so I'm totally up for it.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Densa44 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:55 pm

Take your time, a little bit every day is much better than too much all at once.
You can do this, make it fun for you and the dog. I'm training my wife's female PP now and she jumps up on the table when we are getting close to it. 5 mins or so and that is it for to-day.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:22 pm

The jowl fetch comes after hold, or during. You pinch the dogs upper jowls against the top canines, command fetch, then place the dowel in dogs mouth. It is, in my opinion, critical to precede ALL force fetch with the jowl so the dog learns to open his mouth, take an object and accept pressure. I can't even imagine skipping this stage. You know when you're done with the jowl when you can simply touch the muzzle and he pops his jaws open. Then it's time to proceed to the ear.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby mastercaster » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:59 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The jowl fetch comes after hold, or during. You pinch the dogs upper jowls against the top canines, command fetch, then place the dowel in dogs mouth. It is, in my opinion, critical to precede ALL force fetch with the jowl so the dog learns to open his mouth, take an object and accept pressure. I can't even imagine skipping this stage. You know when you're done with the jowl when you can simply touch the muzzle and he pops his jaws open. Then it's time to proceed to the ear.


Good to know! I guess you do this jowl pinch from above the dog's muzzle with your thumb and index finger?? They don't show or use this step in either the Smart Fetch or Perfect Retrieve systems on the DVDs
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby mastercaster » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:03 am

Densa44 wrote:Take your time, a little bit every day is much better than too much all at once.
You can do this, make it fun for you and the dog. I'm training my wife's female PP now and she jumps up on the table when we are getting close to it. 5 mins or so and that is it for to-day.


I know I'm not doing it for more than five minutes at a time although I do more time doing other basic obedience stuff but probably no more than 5-6 reps of anything, mostly with treats and sometimes with low stim and treats combined. I was wondering if I should do the FF twice a day sometimes or if once is sufficient?

I apologize to the OP for asking these questions on his thread but I thought it might be information that is useful for him, as well.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:09 am

mastercaster wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The jowl fetch comes after hold, or during. You pinch the dogs upper jowls against the top canines, command fetch, then place the dowel in dogs mouth. It is, in my opinion, critical to precede ALL force fetch with the jowl so the dog learns to open his mouth, take an object and accept pressure. I can't even imagine skipping this stage. You know when you're done with the jowl when you can simply touch the muzzle and he pops his jaws open. Then it's time to proceed to the ear.


Good to know! I guess you do this jowl pinch from above the dog's muzzle with your thumb and index finger?? They don't show or use this step in either the Smart Fetch or Perfect Retrieve systems on the DVDs



Yes. When you train a dog, every step leads to a step. The jowl pinch eliminates unnecessary pressure on the ear and makes the ear go faster. Everything you can do to make training faster and easier for the dog should be done. It is a logical progression.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Doc E » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:22 am

Toe hitch works -- kinda.... What do you do when the dog is in the field and needs a correction ? With ear pinch, you have an easy correction -- and even better when you have transitioned to the ecollar.

FF (like other training) has three steps.
1. Teach (HOLD)
2. Force (Ear Pinch)
3 Reinforce (Ecollar).

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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:33 am

So you started using e-collar pressure on the dog without ANY other collar conditioning training prior??

No wonder your dog is confused. Your dog has no idea how to turn the pressure off, and no previous experience with the e-collar to help him.

Everyone always seems to forget to mention that you shoving the dummy in the dogs mouth, and the dog willingly reaching for it are two VERY different behaviors. One is you doing something to the dog and the other is the dog doing something for himself. Until your dog understands you want him to take the dummy from him, he hasn't got a clue how to turn the pressure off.

Find a way to helping him. He's not stubborn, he's confused, and rightly so.
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