Stubborn Dog FF

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Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:11 pm

I have a PP that is being really stubborn when I apply pressure to take the dummy from my hand she twists and turns and won't take the object any advice to get her to take it?
Last edited by Runningwild on Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Stubborn Dog

Postby Doc E » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:24 pm

I take it that you are talking about Force Fetch.
How long did you spend on HOLD ?
How far along with hold did you go ?
What FF training program are you following ?

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Re: Stubborn Dog

Postby Runningwild » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:17 pm

Doc E wrote:I take it that you are talking about Force Fetch.
How long did you spend on HOLD ?
How far along with hold did you go ?
What FF training program are you following ?

.

Yes sorry forgot to put force fetch been working on hold for a week
Stimulate when she drops it's until I put it back into her mouth and she won't drop it anymore
I'm following john hann perfect retrieve
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Get off the collar and do it manually.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Stubborn Dog

Postby ryanr » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:12 pm

Runningwild wrote:
Doc E wrote:I take it that you are talking about Force Fetch.
How long did you spend on HOLD ?
How far along with hold did you go ?
What FF training program are you following ?

.

Yes sorry forgot to put force fetch been working on hold for a week
Stimulate when she drops it's until I put it back into her mouth and she won't drop it anymore
I'm following john hann perfect retrieve


You've only been at FF for a week and you already jumped to e-collar stimulating????
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:37 pm

I'm following how hann does it
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:27 pm

Here's my problem with that system. When you don't THOROUGHLY teach hold, you have no basics th fall back on when you get a non compliant dog. With an ecollar, the higher the level of stimulation you use the more problems you will encounter. If you had used the Carr method, you have several basics steps to fall back on: jowl pinch, ear pinch, stick, ecollar. You're not just a one trick pony which is what you are now. That is the strength of the Carr- Smart Fetch system and that us why so many thousands and thousands of dogs of varying degrees of tractability have been trained using it.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:17 am

The Perfect Retrieve system teaches Hold before proceeding to overlaying the ecollar. Did the dog hold the item well before you began overlaying the ecollar?
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Runningwild » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:02 am

AverageGuy wrote:The Perfect Retrieve system teaches Hold before proceeding to overlaying the ecollar. Did the dog hold the item well before you began overlaying the ecollar?

Yes followed all the steps to taking object from hand with stimulation
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Doc E » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:11 am

Listen to GONEHUNTIN.
STOP what you are doing now until you get on a better program.
You're putting the cart before the horse.
Get on a Carr based program like "SmartFetch".

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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:40 am

Runningwild wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:The Perfect Retrieve system teaches Hold before proceeding to overlaying the ecollar. Did the dog hold the item well before you began overlaying the ecollar?

Yes followed all the steps to taking object from hand with stimulation


So how long would the dog hold before you started the ecollar overlay? Was it responding well to praise while holding the object?

Was the ecollar introduced prior to using it in this program and if so, how?

What level stimulation are you using on the table when the dog drops the object? How long will it hold it before dropping it now that you are attempting to overlay the collar?
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:17 am

It is really hard to give good advice in this area without seeing the dog. Beware of those that do is my first advice. One thing I am very comfortable advising is to go back and watch the DVDs again. I learn something new each time I watched them for the first 6-7 times in a row. I would watch them daily after a training session and before the next one. I just watched DVD 1 to refresh my memory on it and one thing Jon said that rings true over and over, is "I want the dog to drop it so I can correct it". Some struggle is part of the process. Whether the struggle you are having is productive is hard to say without seeing it in person or on a video, but it might well be if your corrections and praise are well timed.

Another generic observation I have is that many many times what I think has been our worst training session was actually a break through and the session following showed dramatic improvement. Going back a step to a task the dog knows and complies with well, followed by asking the dog to do the new task is another good tactic at times. But if the point you are at is the normal struggle which accompanies the learning process, then you have to persevere through it. Rewatching the DVDs helped me determine if the struggles I was having were productive or not. Nearly always they were and I just lacked confidence in the moment. Jon also shows how to make productive use of raising and lowering the stimulation levels according to the dog's reaction and understanding. He also mentions how it is normal for a dog to try many different ways to get out of what is being asked, e.g. moving around, flailing with their feet, laying down, and the breakthrough is helping the dog learn that there is only one way - get the object in your mouth.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:57 pm

It is just SOOO much easier to do it with the jowl and ear before the collar. Honest.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby Doc E » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:23 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:It is just SOOO much easier to do it with the jowl and ear before the collar. Honest.


Once again, you are spot on.
I want to train and hunt with you.....We would get along well.

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Re: Stubborn Dog FF

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:12 pm

AverageGuy wrote:It is really hard to give good advice in this area without seeing the dog. Beware of those that do is my first advice.


About the best information you can ever get!!!!

We all have our methods, our preferences, etc.

I prefer a softer, more intelligent dog. I prefer softer methods that suit the temperament dog that I like.

Once you've selected your method, learn it, stick with it, finish it out.

If you're not sure, get someone else to do it.

Just my $.02,

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