Check this out

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

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Re: Check this out

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:58 am

Intermittent rewards seems to work better for some things... pulling a slot machine lever and getting a reward intermittently creates more compulsion than if you always get a reward. Not sure if this makes dogs hunt harder though?

As an aside, how long do you think it will take for gun dog trainers to start doing PR instead of FF, and then finishing off with ecollar?
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:18 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Intermittent rewards seems to work better for some things... pulling a slot machine lever and getting a reward intermittently creates more compulsion than if you always get a reward. Not sure if this makes dogs hunt harder though?

As an aside, how long do you think it will take for gun dog trainers to start doing PR instead of FF, and then finishing off with ecollar?


Never. It makes no sense and is not reliable. You may see amateurs doing it, but never a pro.

I don't think any good dog hunts harder through either reward or because birds are scarce. A good dog always hunts hard for birds. In fact I think you see the opposite being true; the more birds they find, the more search intensity they exude.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:43 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Bruce Schwartz wrote:Intermittent rewards seems to work better for some things... pulling a slot machine lever and getting a reward intermittently creates more compulsion than if you always get a reward. Not sure if this makes dogs hunt harder though?

As an aside, how long do you think it will take for gun dog trainers to start doing PR instead of FF, and then finishing off with ecollar?


Never. It makes no sense and is not reliable. You may see amateurs doing it, but never a pro.

I don't think any good dog hunts harder through either reward or because birds are scarce. A good dog always hunts hard for birds. In fact I think you see the opposite being true; the more birds they find, the more search intensity they exude.

Leerburg has a video program for gundogs now. This is the future, regardless of what oldtimers think.

Check my signature, PR is extremely successful.
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Re: Check this out

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:06 pm

I think that PR is an excellent way to introduce tasks to most dogs, and depending on the individual potentially all that is necessary.

Relatively recently, one of the Tabels (gurus of blood tracking) mentioned that blood tracking should be more PR than force and discipline.

I understand that more and more of the Germans are going to PR in their training... Bear in mind the trained retrieve at one time in Europe involved suspending a dog with two ropes attached to its collar (from opposite directions) such that the only choice was to comply, grab the duck, and thus be allowed to swim (vs. tread water/sink).

Hegewald stated that there was no method of training so cruel as what a crippled animal experienced if not properly recovered. I.e. the end justified the means.

But, I think the dogs have changed a bit since the early 1900s.

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Re: Check this out

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:27 pm

I presume if you went to the most successful animal trainer in the world and asked him to teach your dog to lie down, sit, come, stay, fetch,hold, drop,and heel he'd probably say, "OK, but it'll take an hour or so." Evan Graham would probably say, "Sure, leave him with me for a couple of months once he's old enough to train."

On blind retrieves I steer my dog to the right or left using a shepherd's whistle. Think about steering your dog on a water blind so that he bears right or left without having to stop multiple times for cast corrections? Someday that will be the way field trials are conducted ... but it'll be awhile.
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:11 pm

Difference is Bruce when training using the Carr program you a ALWAYS have a tool to fall back on. Not so with cookies and ec. That's why am' may use it and pro's never will.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:13 pm

3drahthaars wrote:I think that PR is an excellent way to introduce tasks to most dogs, and depending on the individual potentially all that is necessary.

Relatively recently, one of the Tabels (gurus of blood tracking) mentioned that blood tracking should be more PR than force and discipline.

3ds


I am a beginner in this Clicker/Treat PR area, but that is how I have used it with my current pup. To introduce new tasks and keep his performance of them upbeat with intermittent continued sparse use of treat rewards, particularly for OB.

And somewhat to GH's point I think, I have overlayed the ecollar on all commands so the pup understands the ask is not optional and there are consequences of refusal as well. I think the use of PR in lower drive subjects has allowed me to put more pressure on the pup while working other subjects, keeping his overall attitude upbeat. I am very pleased with how this pup's training is coming together at the moment, but of course think things could be different with different dogs and different tasks.

Other than breaking the dog from running live healthy deer, I have never had a need to use force when training blood tracking. But my objective is to recover animals vs tow the line to test edicts I see no benefit in. And that follows this same theme, a dog that enjoys hunting for what is leaving the blood track will be good at its job as long as I do not make it all about drudgery and discipline is my approach.
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Re: Check this out

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:49 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Difference is Bruce when training using the Carr program you a ALWAYS have a tool to fall back on. Not so with cookies and ec. That's why am' may use it and pro's never will.



GH: close your eyes and envision a 100 yard water blind where the dog is steered around or over a couple of obstacles to the bird and never once looks at the handler. I think Rex would totally get it.
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Re: Check this out

Postby hicntry » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:16 pm

"But, I think the dogs have changed a bit since the early 1900s."

+1
Dogs are bred much softer now....as are people. Goes hand in hand. I would crush most of the dogs being bred today....as would most old style breeders that actually produced a trained dog.
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Re: Check this out

Postby hicntry » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:30 pm

Maybe I should clarify my last post since most won't understand what I am saying. New age breeding is producing soft dogs that can't handle the tried and true methods of training real dogs. The result is that the new possey methods have been developed to train the sub par dogs . Looking at the dogs of today, yes, the possey methods may work better than the old methods.....mainly because your only working with half the dog that used to be the norm. While the possey stuff is a necessity today...it won't work with the strong dogs that used to be the norm. Training has devolved....along with the quality of the dogs being trained.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Check this out

Postby STait » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:44 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I don't think any good dog hunts harder through either reward or because birds are scarce. A good dog always hunts hard for birds. In fact I think you see the opposite being true; the more birds they find, the more search intensity they exude.


Maybe not, but I know when birds are scarce my dogs range bigger. Is their search more intense? Who knows, but you can tell they don't want to quit! Probably just a side effect of scarce birds.

No way pro trainers will switch to clicker training. No hard driven dog will go through all stages of training without some sort of pressure applied. I know mine won't.
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Re: Check this out

Postby hicntry » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:04 pm

+1
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:27 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Difference is Bruce when training using the Carr program you a ALWAYS have a tool to fall back on. Not so with cookies and ec. That's why am' may use it and pro's never will.



GH: close your eyes and envision a 100 yard water blind where the dog is steered around or over a couple of obstacles to the bird and never once looks at the handler. I think Rex would totally get it.


I can easily envision that but it will work with pressure as well as candy and you have a building block to fall back on. You would accomplish it in a lot less time as well.

I thought last time you posted about this experiment you said it wasn't working???
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:05 pm

GH: With respect to steering the dog via whistle commands it's a work in progress. My dog executes 95% of commands in the field but if I apply ecollar stim for an infraction she tends to sit instead of complying. I think a correction there is useless, so now I just blow a sit command and handle to the blind. So, I agree, there's no building block to fall back on.

She's 100% in drills so I know she knows exactly what she's supposed to do ... and it's not the only command she sometimes ignores. On water we're doing it on some drills (but not on blinds) so I'm not sure how that's going to turn out. Again, too much pressure and she starts slowing down or breaking down. We're working on swim-by currently and maybe getting through that will help.

After a pass at one test at the Senior level HRC she failed two tests in a row so we're back to basics on a lot of stuff right now. Remember, I'm working with a pudelpointer so it's hard to say what a hard charging lab would do under similar circumstances. Still, it's pretty cool to watch her take a 50 yd line and turn her a couple of times using the whistle.

Stay tuned. I sort of wish I had a fanatic retrieving lab to do this on but I don't. I have a friend who I train with who started doing this a little but never stuck with it. He just won an amateur third and an open first back to back in licensed trials in Canada last week so after the nationals he might start back in on this. I'm looking for disciples if you know of any who are interested.
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:29 pm

As far as labs go Bruce, the system is just not precise enough for a trial dog. It simply seems that it takes far too much time for a marginal result.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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