Check this out

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

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Check this out

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:13 pm

If you are like me, this will make you sit up, take notice and think about the possibilities. https://www.facebook.com/LoganHausKenne ... 508803450/
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Re: Check this out

Postby STait » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:43 pm

Fun to watch. Where does intelligence come into this purely natural (instinctual), behavior training?? Does it take "thinking", on the animals part, or is the process linked without a hint of intelligence? I think I know the answer, but wondering what others think. Thanks for posting AG.
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:17 pm

There is NO question how effective treats are in training young dogs. None. You can use a clicker if you want, but there,s no difference in saying "K" or using a clicker. I prefer vocal so the dog associates my voice with both praise and correction.

Remember to, there is a world of difference between teaching a command and breaking or counteracting a strong instinct. Treats are a huge aid to training any pup though. What those dogs are displaying is simply rote and memory work, no instincts involved.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby STait » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:52 pm

So learning behavior has nothing to do with instinct? I'm being sincere, just trying to understand. What causes evolution??
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:54 pm

STait wrote:So learning behavior has nothing to do with instinct? I'm being sincere, just trying to understand. What causes evolution??


Personally, I equate learning behavior with intelligence. Instinct is a God given gift a dog is born with and has evolved through evolution of the breed. Instinct and intelligence have little if anything to do with each other. IMO.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby STait » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:06 am

Sorry, now I'm detracting from the OP. But, okay, I agree intelligence has little to do with instinct. So rote memory comes through intelligence? Or is it separate from both? Does intstinctual evolution come only from environment? Is there cognitive thought used with rote memory?
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Re: Check this out

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:58 am

I used a clicker first and then transferred to "X" - short for excellent and not a sound/word commonly heard otherwise. I also believe instinct is distinct from intelligence. And instincts that are consistent with the performance we want in our dogs are better than intelligence e.g. strong pointing instinct, desire to chase and get moving things in their mouth (retrieving), treeing instinct. Intelligence affects rate and ease of learning - that can be helpful or a challenge in training a dog depending on how cooperative it is. Instincts inconsistent with the performance we want in our dogs can be problem for the life of the dog e.g. a dog which wants to put its head down low and track running birds but also lacks sufficient pointing instinct to slow down and point as the track leads it to the birds will always bump a too large percentage of the birds it works in such a manner. Intelligence helps a dog problem solve which is why an intelligent hound combined with excellent instincts most often rises to the top.

I trained a couple of German Shepards and intelligence was a great asset with those 2 dogs as they had no agenda of their own. With GWPs intelligence has been more of mixed blessing as they sometimes use it to pursue their own agenda and sidestep mine along the way.

Steve, my first thought is rote memory does come from intelligence which is why some dogs learn faster than others. Some dogs remember where they found birds in a place they have hunted before and or they more quickly look for them in the same types of places they found birds in before.

I am thinking the more we can use an approach like this to teach and then use negative re-enforcement where/when needed, in much lower quantities, the better the cooperation from the dog and enjoyment for both of us in the process.

Not claiming to have that all figured out, just sharing some thoughts.
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:42 am

Rote has little to do with intelligence. Take the dumbest animal and show it a simple task, have him perform it enough times, and it will become second nature to the dog. May take him 500 reps to learn it, but he'll learn it. An intelligent dog will learn the same task with 20 repetitions. An intelligent dog can learn complex tasks, a stupid dog cannot. Got no idea what the he'll you're talking about in the rest of your post. What do your text books tell you?
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:59 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Rote has little to do with intelligence. Take the dumbest animal and show it a simple task, have him perform it enough times, and it will become second nature to the dog. May take him 500 reps to learn it, but he'll learn it. An intelligent dog will learn the same task with 20 repetitions. An intelligent dog can learn complex tasks, a stupid dog cannot. Got no idea what the he'll you're talking about in the rest of your post. What do your text books tell you?


An intelligent dog learns the task with 20 reps and a dumb one requires 500 to learn the same. That is the same as what I posted.

If the text book comment is directed at me it is way off the mark. I have not read one in a very long time and my post is drawn from a lifetime of working/hunting with dogs. But I do take in new information on subjects that interest me daily and attempt to make use of it to see if it can further my goals and success.
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:24 am

No, not to you AG, to STait above. I totally agree with you.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby STait » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:57 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Rote has little to do with intelligence.


If Rote has little to do with intelligence and nothing to do with instinct, then how does an intelligent dog "learn" faster than a dumb one??
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Re: Check this out

Postby STait » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:36 am

Not trying to rattle your brain GH, just digging a little deeper. I know you understand the mind of a dog. As a lifelong falconer I have used a type of training that would be considered similar to this. Here's an example, but is kind of long to explain. I found it took about 23 positive lessons to instill the behavior.

The behavior: When training a falcon to wait on the goal is to get them to climb to a staggering height so he/she has a bigger striking zone when quarry is flushed for the stoop. To speed up this training I used a 5' helium balloon (some used kites at the time and most now use drones). Anyway, the exact behavior desired was to train the falcon to pump his wings to climb to great heights (1000') until served a flying quarry (pigeon). Using food as a reward, I first trained the bird to come a long distance to the lure which had a piece of quail tied to it. No problem, only takes a few lessons. At the same time acclimate the bird to the 5' balloon in the sky above the lure. Once lesson is adequately learned, I tie the piece of quail to a string hanging from the balloon (10-15'). Then in three lessons teach the falcon to climb a short distance and grab the bait from the balloon. Once the balloon is about 50'-100' up (3 lessons) I would then raise the bait to 200' and as the falcon pumped up to the bait and reached his last pitch I would serve a pigeon, so I transferred the reward. I wanted to serve him to break away from the bait because my goal was to train him to climb to 1000' and stoop from the heavens at whatever flushed below. If I let him follow the balloon up too high and grab the bait the transition to look down and stoop was much more difficult. Anyway, after raising the bait (balloon) steadily each lesson the bird would climb and then break off when the flying bait bird flushed. All along I'm also readying him to wean from the balloon and climb high naturally without stimuli so at every lesson, the balloon (bait) is extended a further distance than before between him and the balloon, before the flush. At about "positive" lesson #23 I kept the balloon grounded and he had a great performance, never to need the balloon again. He was also very strong by the end of the training and ready for game hawking. I have other friends that have used Skinner's techniques to train their falcons because negative reinforcement couldn't accomplish the same success.
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Re: Check this out

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:58 am

STait wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Rote has little to do with intelligence.


If Rote has little to do with intelligence and nothing to do with instinct, then how does an intelligent dog "learn" faster than a dumb one??


Rote is simply the repetition of a task. Smart dog's learn the task in fewer reps.

Tractability is the ability to willingly learn and highly valued in any dog learning complex tasks.

Instinct is what a dog does naturally through selective breeding; he would need no training to perform an instinctual task but would need honing to polish it.

Desire fuels the engine and drives the machine.

If a dog does not have all four, desire, instinct, tractability and intelligence, it will never be a truly "Great Dog".
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Check this out

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:59 am

Mike, in the video, believes playing the towel game on the end of a flirt pole shows real drive if the dog chases it. All protection dog people believe the same thing. Chasing balls, towels etc is a learned behavior and they learn it as puppies. It is a game. no more. I was showing them the learning process and was informed I was working the flirt wrong because I was bouncing the towel in the air also. They told be that If I didn't let the pup get the towel the pups would quickly lose interest in the game. Well, hunting dogs aren't successful all the time and drive is what keeps them going. I doubt anyone want to go hunting with a dog that up and quits when game is scarce. The videos look pretty impressive, but, that is what they are made for. Instinct and intelligence are totally separate things. You all have said it right here. Intelligence can be seen by how quickly a dog learns things that are being taught. If it is instinctive, it doesn't have to be taught in the first place.
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Re: Check this out

Postby STait » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:32 am

Don, I've found with my dogs that if the bird finding gets tough, they start looking harder and farther. Almost like it's a competition. You have to know the dogs individually to notice the difference because their drive is already quite high. I actually think omitting success randomly (naturally or on purpose) creates more drive in the best dogs. Along with exposure to difficult situations.
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