Pushing a dog that's shut down

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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby ryanr » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:54 am

hicntry wrote:Any breed of dog actually bred for bird work shouldn't be at all hesitant about holding birds, any species of bird whether they have ever seen one or not.. If they are, I wouldn't waste my time with them. On the other hand, trainers love em.


I just about totally agree, the small caveat being I've seen a dog or two that was a little unsure the first time it encountered duck and was supposed to pick it up. The dogs were young (and didn't completely refuse either) and have gone on to be excellent duck search dogs and enthusiastic waterfowl retrievers. At one of my first NAVHDA training days, I was new and they were working on remain by blind sequence and then did some drags. Not knowing any better I asked if my dog could try a drag. He was 8 months old. So they laid out a drag & I grabbed my dog brought him up and pretty much just released him. He raced down a line and turned on a dime into the cover & stopped. They said quietly "he found it." I said "good boy" as he picked up the duck and trotted back. They asked me how many times I'd done a duck drag and I said "that's the first one I guess. He's only seen some ducks swimming on a pond before." The funny part was when they asked if we were in the August UT test (this was March) and I said "No, NA." I truly had no clue, it just looked like something fun for my dog.

Now the dog in question with the OP, I don't think I'd have forced the dog since it had never even held a duck before. I think maybe the right way to handle it would be to go back on the table and introduce holding the duck. Or why not do a visual duck search and get that dog fired up to catch a duck first? Then it has it in its mouth and it's all excited and happy. Probably be much easier then to go back on the table and introduce the retrieve sequence with the duck. However, HiC I agree though a dog that balks that much at just getting its mouth on a bird (it shouldn't matter that much that it's a duck) I'm thinking one thing: glad it's not mine. You hear the same thing about woodcock, some dogs don't like retrieving them. I don't get it. My dog's never seen or had a chicken in his mouth, until Friday when he brought me one of my neighbor's new chickens, :shock: That bird intro cost me $20 & a sincere apology. :lol:
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:49 am

I think two separate things are being mixed in the discussion about a dog that will not pick up a bird.

Every time I acquire a puppy I look for a breeding that will produce a bold puppy with strong NA. So I get it that is what we all want each time we bring a puppy home. Those puppies are very easy to develop and train.

But if someone has one that is not the perfect bold temperament, to say the dog should not be trained is ridiculous. Of course it should be trained, up and until the point it become obvious the dog cannot be trained. Many dogs which might have hesitation picking up the first bird they encounter can be trained to be serviceable dogs.

What they should not be, is bred! Two different issues entirely.

Not enough back ground information to judge the OP for me. Every bold temperament dog I have had the pleasure of raising, training and hunting has had some occurrence where I believed it was necessary and productive for me to enforce an already trained command the dog was refusing to obey or otherwise the dog would own me from then on ...
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:28 am

Let me explain the theory on not forcing a dog on birds. First thing that should be done with a pup, along with socialization, is to make that pup a bird-a-holic. From the time it's a baby, have it chasing pigeons or quail, it can handle those. Pheasant and duck are different and a goose is taboo. A pheasant or a duck can hurt a pup, beating them with wings, pecking them. They can shy a dog from birds for the rest of their life. Even the most aggressive dog can be frightened of birds if intro's are done wrong. Think of yourself. You learn when young by getting hurt. Don't touch hot items. Don't jump off roofs, etc. You get the idea. However, when intro's are done in a responsible progression, the result is a fabulous bird dog. What the Hell is the rush? Why put a puppy on a tough duck or spurring pheasant? Let them develop naturally and in an orderly progression. As they become big enough to handle each bird, then progress them.

So, if we start a dog too young on forcing on birds, before he is a bird-a-holic, put pressure on him with birds and perhaps give him a bad impression of birds, you have just thrown away, squandered, the most powerful tool in your training arsenal to overcome problems: LIVE BIRDS. From swimming to blinds, they can help solve many training problems. So why would you want to take a dog, right off the ff table, and continuing making his life miserable only now on birds? You wouldn't.

So, once the dog is through FF and forced to pile, retrieving bumpers reliable and happily, NOW add the birds in the yard, starting with pigeons and progressing to pheasant and duck as the dog becomes older, stronger, and more capable of handling them. All into's will be done IN THE YARD, not in the field. The field is for polish, not heavy pressure. There is NO RUSH! You are going to have this bird dog for the next 12 years hopefully, so don't rush the bird into's.

Can you include birds as a part of FF? Certainly you can, but why in Heaven's name would you EVER want to take that risk? Anyhow, that's my opinion on it. Not that others are wrong, it's simply my view of the correct way to into a dog on birds. Any method MAY work; I have always tended toward the ones I considered the safest and most productive.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:13 am

GH, I agree.

Appreciate your participation on the Forum. Lots of excellent "Free Advice".
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby hicntry » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:59 am

Ryan, you are quite right, it isn't always black and white and requires some common sense.
What I am saying here people is that when you buy dog for a specific purpose for $1000 on up, you should have a reasonable expectation that a bird dog should be bird crazy, a retriever should not have to be towed behind a boat to get it to swim and the list goes on. Kiger says I have no experience in this field. I do, lots of it and I can tell a poorly bred dog when I see it. Any working breed that has been bred for as long as as these working dogs have been around should want that bird, should love the water. They may have other faults, but, love of birds and water should come natural to any dog worth his salt. There are a lot of things a working dog needs to be trained for such as giving the bird up to the handler, but training a dog to WANT a bird is pointless. Why do breeders breed crappy dogs like this??? Because people today believe it is in the training and accept it. Personally, I would really be pi$$ed if I paid $1500 for a bird dog that didn't WANT the bird or a retriever that didn't love the water.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby STait » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:56 am

We need a like button, all great comments on this second page.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:03 pm

EXCELLENT POST H.C.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:00 pm

Interesting perspectives. One from a trainer, one from a breeder. You can pretty much merge the two together and come up with the same opinion.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby mastercaster » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:11 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Interesting perspectives. One from a trainer, one from a breeder. You can pretty much merge the two together and come up with the same opinion.


Are you saying you two should rent a room?? LOL :lol:
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby hicntry » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:15 pm

Ya know, there is an old saying that, " people always end up with the dog they deserve". This thread is a perfect example of why that saying came into existence. If a person is willing to accept inferior quality in a dog, they simply deserve no better than an inferior dog.

As far as some of us renting a room together, well, I can't think of better dog people than GH and AG to kick back and share a few drinks together while we talk dogs.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:38 pm

Well ryan, you have just as much experience and are just as wrong as Hycntry!!!!!

And by the way, if the chicken he brought back was dead you need to redo your FF. It should have been returned alive.


Now to straighten Gone hunting out a bit.

I never said we just Force a dog on a bird. What i described was system where we teach the dog to have a reliable hold and be comfortable with the birds its being asked to retrieve. At the end of FF I do walking fetch with the birds. I want to know that I CAN force the dog on a bird if needed. If I cant do it in the yard , then the field is last place it should have to be done. I then take the dog out and throw marks on land and water to make sure we are good to go. If you don't go through this process and you have to correct a dropped bird in the field or in training, then what do you do????

IK certainly wouldn't do it with Evans program as the dogs are not thoroughly prepared for it. In fact, what you are doing has more risks than what I am doing because I spend more time with birds during the whole process.

OLnce again, you slam a system you probable never understood or used in the first place.

And Gonehuntin, If you're dogs are miserable when they come off the FF table you really need to change programs! The should be enthusiastic, not abused.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:51 pm

I think you should author a book Kiger called "How Little I Know About Dog's And Dog Training".
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby hicntry » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:10 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I think you should author a book Kiger called "How Little I Know About Dog's And Dog Training".



+1....seriously
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby mastercaster » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:22 pm

hicntry wrote:As far as some of us renting a room together, well, I can't think of better dog people than GH and AG to kick back and share a few drinks together while we talk dogs.


Ya, no doubt! I've only been on the forum for a couple of weeks and I already have learned a ton. Hoping my pea brain can absorb it all! And more than that, I hope I'm able to execute some of it. Once again, sure wish I could see some of this training done first hand,,,,,that would be VERY beneficial! I learn a whole lot better by watching than reading about it.
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Re: Pushing a dog that's shut down

Postby hicntry » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:43 pm

It is slow so I have a question for Average Guy.

"But if someone has one that is not the perfect bold temperament, to say the dog should not be trained is ridiculous. Of course it should be trained, up and until the point it become obvious the dog cannot be trained. Many dogs which might have hesitation picking up the first bird they encounter can be trained to be serviceable dogs."

What it sounds like here AG is that of course the dog should be trained....by someone else for someone else.....but you don't want it. So, we are in total agreement, I got no use for a dog as described. You got no use for it. Do either of us care if someone else wants to waste their time training it? Not at all.....but we are not going to do it.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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