Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon May 29, 2017 8:40 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Gonehuntin,

Im confused, You said Carrs method was Grahams method then you say Carrs method has changed??????????????????????????????????????? So is Graham using Carrs method or not????

Certainly Dobbs isn't as popular. I don't know about all his methods, but his FF method had many innovations.

I would challenge you to specifically describe what is wrong with his FF system?


Evan trained with Rex in Escalon and got to know him there. At that time and still many field trailers today, use the true Carr method. Even took the method and simply used it applying less pressure. The method is virtually identical except for the application of pressure. It was at this same time (mid eighties) that Jim and Phyllis Dobbs were working with Rex. Jim was his yard man. Jim cut a deal with Tritronics, left Rex and started his own kennel. He was never really competitive in the field trial venue once he left Rex.

So yes, step for step, Evan's method is the Carr program applied with less pressure.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Kiger2 » Wed May 31, 2017 12:28 pm

Yes i know the history. But thats not what I asked or what the OP needs to know.

You can correct me if Im wrong but my understanding is that Dobbs left Carr because he thought there was a better way.

He developed his FF method based on less pressure and simplifying the learning curve for the dog. In essence He did what evan did and took a step or two further.
I was really excited when i got my copy of Smartfetch, I had been using Dobbs with good results but there was all this hype about Smartfetch. I read the book and was disappointed. It is a good book and the program is sound and I like a lot of the drills. But I was really disappointed at the FF aspect. There really wasn't anything new.

Ive got a young Golden Ill be starting FF next month. Im looking at smart fetch sitting on the bookshelf. Thats where it will stay. Ill still be following Dobbs method.

So again, the question is, how is Dobbs method detrimental???? How does it fail to fulfill all the requirements of a FF program?

Good luck trying to answer! Because if there was an answer, you would have given it already. Evan cant even give an answer to that question.

Dobbs method is sound. It is more thorough as it spend more time with "Hold". Period.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed May 31, 2017 12:37 pm

I haven't looked at a Dobb's program in 20 years. If you like it, use it. I use what I'm used to and what has worked for me, and that's what everyone should do.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Doc E » Wed May 31, 2017 8:22 pm

Kiger2 wrote: all this hype about Smartfetch.
I read the book and was disappointed. It is a good book and the program is sound and I like a lot of the drills. But I was really disappointed at the FF aspect. There really wasn't anything new.

Ive got a young Golden Ill be starting FF next month. Im looking at smart fetch sitting on the bookshelf.


It sounds as though you used the FF portion of the Smartwork instead of SmartFetch.
I'll agree, the FF section of Smartwork book is less than desirable, but what you need is the SmartFetch DVD. It's incredible .

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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:17 pm

Doc,
I see, I apologize for being so foolish to have wasted money on the book thinking I was getting a useful training tool. So I guess what your saying is the DVD actually covers a different method than described in the book?????????????????????????????????????

Please read what I said. I said I had a copy of "Smartfetch" on my shelf. The programs are different , the DVD won't help.


Gonehuntin,
If you haven't used or don't understand it then stop knocking it. Tell people WHY they shouldn't use it. Why it is not as good as Graham or whoever.


For the OP.
Neither DOC nor Gonehuntin can say anything is wrong with Dobbs method.Because there is nothing wrong with it. You can use it not, but as a first timer, you should certainly review it throughly.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby mastercaster » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:37 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Doc,


For the OP.
Neither DOC nor Gonehuntin can say anything is wrong with Dobbs method.Because there is nothing wrong with it. You can use it not, but as a first timer, you should certainly review it throughly.


It sure would be nice if these DVDs were popular enough that my city library would have them so you could sign them out to watch but I guess that would be in an ideal dog owning/training world. LOL

I did bite the bullet, though, in the last few days and bought both the Perfect Retrieve DVD series and Smart Fetch. Sure would be nice to be able to have nice deep pockets so I could get some more DVDs like the Dobbs one and be able to fly out and attend some of these training seminars, etc. but what with being on a pension I can't do that. Hopefully the two i got will cover my needs.

Now, if someone would like to loan out a DVD or two I'd gladly pay the postage. :D
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:00 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Doc,
I see, I apologize for being so foolish to have wasted money on the book thinking I was getting a useful training tool. So I guess what your saying is the DVD actually covers a different method than described in the book?????????????????????????????????????

Please read what I said. I said I had a copy of "Smartfetch" on my shelf. The programs are different , the DVD won't help.


Gonehuntin,
If you haven't used or don't understand it then stop knocking it. Tell people WHY they shouldn't use it. Why it is not as good as Graham or whoever.


For the OP.
Neither DOC nor Gonehuntin can say anything is wrong with Dobbs method.Because there is nothing wrong with it. You can use it not, but as a first timer, you should certainly review it throughly.



Kiger, 30 years ago I knew and rejected that system as did every retriever trainer I knew in the entire United States. I sure as Hell am not going to go back and look at a system rejected by most of the country now to satisfy some newbie on a forum. As I said, if it works for you, use it. The FF program promoted by Evan Graham has trained more successful dog's that any and all other systems combined by a large margin. I use systems that promote winners and are proven systems. Most of us thought that TT paid Dobbs just to develop something different to promote their products and catch the unsuspecting newbie, apparently like it did you.

The fact that I don't follow it and comment on it is because I rejected it 30 years ago and see no reason to revisit it now. Since you're such a devotee, perhaps you could supply a list of professional trainers using it. As far as I know, there are none.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:41 pm

Gonehuntin, This is really fun, I love it when people dodge the question.

It is not relative how many dogs have been trained the Carr Way. It works. What Im saying is that I believe its better for a new person and really more fair to all dogs to use Dobbs method.

Lets try the question this way. Since you rejected it years ago, explain to us in detail what it is about the program that caused you to reject it?
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:53 pm

I really don't know Kiger. That was some 30-35 years ago. Point is, you're about the only one I know of that uses it. Good. Use it. The Carr system works for me so I use it. End of story.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Doc E » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:08 pm

Kiger
I never said anything at all about the Dobbs system.
I used it on a dog 30 years ago or so --- Then I went to Graham and never looked back.
From this post on, I won't waste anymore of my time with you.

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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:39 am

Whooooooooo!

Been away too long, Sooo much to catch up on.

Gonehuntin and Doc,
Im not saying YOU need to use Dobbs method. Im just saying its easier for the dog to follow and easier for new people to use on a dog. If there is a program that does a better job of teaching and reinforcing hold, point me to it.

Please explain WHY its not a good program to use????????????? Just saying you don't or you tried it doesn't count, EXPLAIN WHY it shouldn't be used or you don't use it.

If you cant explain why you rejected it then you are just stuck in a rut, seems to me you've been there for thirty years!!!.

You were a pro trainer or are, why don't you explain what is wrong with the program. Just saying you don't know anyone using it, is not an answer, its doting the question!!!!!

Dobbs method isn't popular because he went against Rex Carr and went down the road wit tri tronics and not down the road of competing. Most trainers were exposed to Carrs methods and biased against Dobbs . Its POLITICAL. Nothing to do with what actually works.

Its not that hard a question and it seems like you have lots of time to reply here. What EXACTLY is wrong with Dobbs program???????? No need to reply with anything but an answer to that question.
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