Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

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Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby mastercaster » Fri May 26, 2017 3:24 pm

Out of these two DVD sets which one would you recommend for a first time trainer of force fetch? I've been told both are good,,,just wondering if one is more informative than the other? Also,,,, if anyone has theirs memorized and doesn't need to review it anymore I'd be more than happy to buy it from you since my training funds are limited.

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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby AverageGuy » Fri May 26, 2017 3:48 pm

I cannot say which is better as I have not seen the Smart Fetch product. I have used the Perfect Start/Finish DVDs for years and think they do a great job of training the trainer. I bought the Perfect Retrieve DVDs and judge it as excellent as well. Very clear and thorough. I am using the approach now on my GWP pup training FF and it has gone very well. He understands what I am asking him to do and is upbeat about doing it. The DVD shows you how with most dogs you can bypass the ear pinch and go straight to low level ecollar stimulation teaching the dog how to turn off the stimulation by doing what it has first been shown/taught to do without stimulation. Has worked well for me and the dog I am training currently.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby mastercaster » Fri May 26, 2017 5:31 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I cannot say which is better as I have not seen the Smart Fetch product. I have used the Perfect Start/Finish DVDs for years and think they do a great job of training the trainer. I bought the Perfect Retrieve DVDs and judge it as excellent as well. Very clear and thorough. I am using the approach now on my GWP pup training FF and it has gone very well. He understands what I am asking him to do and is upbeat about doing it. The DVD shows you how with most dogs you can bypass the ear pinch and go straight to low level ecollar stimulation teaching the dog how to turn off the stimulation by doing what it has first been shown/taught to do without stimulation. Has worked well for me and the dog I am training currently.


Is the FF process not shown in the Perfect Start/Finish DVDs? That's what I was wanting it for mostly. Maybe I should be looking into getting the Perfect Retrieve instead? How old was your GWP when you started the process?
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby AverageGuy » Fri May 26, 2017 5:38 pm

Correct FF is not covered in the Perfect Start and Finish DVDs. You would buy the Perfect Retrieve to cover FF. My pup was 14 months when I started FF which was much older than he needed to be. Our situation was we hunted clear through the end of Feb and I did not want to be in the middle of FF while also asking him to retrieve wild birds in the field. And we went straight into Steadiness Training after that as we were able to get into a Clinic covering that subject at Perfection Kennel. So my pup is older than he needed to be when we started FF but it is not going to adversely effect the end result.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Doc E » Fri May 26, 2017 6:02 pm

SmartFetch is the 'bible' of FF.

.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Duckdon » Fri May 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Jon Hann, Perfect Retrieve is not a FF video and he does not cover FF.
I like Danny Farmers FF video but have numerous and take parts and pieces from all of them. Then get your boots on and go do it.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby AverageGuy » Fri May 26, 2017 6:35 pm

MasterCaster

Reading the back cover of the Perfect Retrieve DVD: "Develop and Enhance your dogs retrieve by following this three subject set: 1. The Forced Retrieve 2. The Natural Retrieve 3. The Hardmouth Dog"

It is a form of teaching Forced Retrieve as per the description I just quoted. I mentioned already it does not take you through the ear pinch method, but it uses key elements of teaching and reenforced with the ecollar low levels of stimulation.

I have watched trainers use the toe hitch method but never used it myself. I have used the ear pinch method on 3 dogs prior to this one. I am using The Perfect Retrieve method now which taught the Hold on the table with the dog cinched to the pole and then overlayed the ecollar low level stimulation. All of which are key elements of FF. It bypasses the ear pinch and I like it better because of that, and it has worked well with this dog. But this dog I am working with has had good natural retrieve that I developed as I always have from a baby.

I watched a one year old DD on the table at Jon's place this morning. It was his 3rd session and he was moving up and down the table already picking up the PVC pipe and carrying it as he moved, while the trainer used a low level of stimulation. It was going very well.

So your call. I just wanted to clarify what I know about the Perfect Retrieve approach and DVD.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby mastercaster » Fri May 26, 2017 9:48 pm

Being a novice at this and with the choices that are available out there makes it a tough call for me. As I see it so far, there is the Smart Fetch Evan Graham process or the alternative Perfection Kennel Perfect Retrieve. I imagine there are others. I should also mention that I've also been looking at the Leerburg system on Youtube, as well some others that people have been videoing on their own. I'd like to look at all them more closely by purchasing all the DVDs but unfortunately my funds are limited.

My griff pup is only five months old so I do have some time on my side. Do any of these methods work better with a versatile dog like a WPG? Any suggestions?
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat May 27, 2017 5:48 am

The Carr based (Graham) system has been training pointing dog's for 70 years of more. All breeds of sporting dog's. It is the most well proven system of FF in the world. Nothing else compares and all others are simply variations of it. Leesburg is not a system of ff, it is a no pressure system to teach a finished retrieve. If the dog, for any reason, stops retrieving, you're left with nothing.

There is force and there is force. If you watch Evan's system closely he uses very little pressure. I prefer more. You can't go wrong with the Graham system.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby AverageGuy » Sat May 27, 2017 6:48 am

If you are part of a dog training group e.g. NAVHDA you might see if others have DVDs you could borrow, or if there are members in need of the same information you all could buy different DVDs and swap them around. There are many advocates of SmartFetch and I am sure it will work if you go down that road. So will the Perfect Retrieve approach which uses many/most of the same key elements. I have never checked, Do large public libraries stock any such materials these days?

There is much you can and should be doing now to develop your pup's natural retrieve. I hope you have good information in that area and are using it, as it is the far more important foundation than which FF program you use down the road.

For your first dog you will probably want to land on one program and not switch it up too much, but as Don mentioned it is common for all of us to take in multiple sources of information and then borrow some portion from each. It is common on these Forums for folks to give absolute sounding answers as to how to train a dog but the best trainers are the ones who adapt to each dog and each task they are training as needed. I picked MissKiwi's brain before I started and used some Leesburg type conditioning when I started. It was slow but beneficial and I am sure that it being my first attempt using it I was not great at it. I feel this dog benefitted from putting some pressure and force into the equation but can also see the benefits we got from starting with marker treat work we did. I think it may have made his attitude come up easier once he turned the pressure off by complying with the already trained command.

Good Luck
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat May 27, 2017 7:15 am

Let me clarify on FF. FF is only for the older pup, it has nothing to do with a young pup. ALL pups should be started with no pressure and treats. Many, many, of the things we will teach later are taught with treats then reinforced with true force later. It takes a lot of time but significantly reduces training time later.

With a pup you can teach it to come, to whoa, to take hand signals, to hold and deliver and boundaries all without the true force. Then, at 10 months, a pup will fly through the pressure program.

It is ALWAYS a combination of two methods that work best, not simply one or the other. THE MORE YOU CAN GET A V DOG TO DO BY THEM THINKING IT'S THEIR IDEA, THE BETTER YOU'LL BE. If you get into a battle of will with a German dog, YOU may lose.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Kiger2 » Sat May 27, 2017 11:44 pm

Doc,
Its not "THE" bible of FF, its yours.

I was trained to use the Rex Carr method almost 30 ears ago. I could use it today.

But after the first time i used the Tri tronics trained retrieve I never went back.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun May 28, 2017 11:48 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Let me clarify on FF. FF is only for the older pup, it has nothing to do with a young pup. ALL pups should be started with no pressure and treats. Many, many, of the things we will teach later are taught with treats then reinforced with true force later. It takes a lot of time but significantly reduces training time later.

With a pup you can teach it to come, to whoa, to take hand signals, to hold and deliver and boundaries all without the true force. Then, at 10 months, a pup will fly through the pressure program.

It is ALWAYS a combination of two methods that work best, not simply one or the other. THE MORE YOU CAN GET A V DOG TO DO BY THEM THINKING IT'S THEIR IDEA, THE BETTER YOU'LL BE. If you get into a battle of will with a German dog, YOU may lose.


Needed to be bumped.

In my opinion... once there is the battle of wills there is always the potential for the human to lose. It may be later not sooner, may be at training or hunting (or at a test), but one day your dog will get out of the zone of influence and give you the "toe".

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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun May 28, 2017 3:42 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Doc,
Its not "THE" bible of FF, its yours.

I was trained to use the Rex Carr method almost 30 ears ago. I could use it today.

But after the first time i used the Tri tronics trained retrieve I never went back.


30 years ago the Carr method was quite a lot different than it is today.

The Carr method IS the bible. I'll bet 90% of all retrieve trainers and hunt test trainers use it today. It is THE most reliable method of force fetching a dog. You follow Dobbs I believe. His methods have been shown time and time again to not be valid. Not many Dobbs devotees left today.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Perfect Start/Perfect Finish or Smart fetch??

Postby Kiger2 » Mon May 29, 2017 6:12 pm

Gonehuntin,

Im confused, You said Carrs method was Grahams method then you say Carrs method has changed??????????????????????????????????????? So is Graham using Carrs method or not????

Certainly Dobbs isn't as popular. I don't know about all his methods, but his FF method had many innovations.

I would challenge you to specifically describe what is wrong with his FF system?
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