Eating Bird

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Re: Eating Bird

Postby Chadwick » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:45 pm

Runningwild wrote:I have a pup that when she gets her mouth on a fresh bird eats it in minutes is there any tricks to get her to stop the this?


Four month old puppies explore the world with their mouths. Stop worrying about giving the pup dead birds and work on other stuff until the dog is done with its chewing phase and has a little more training.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:33 pm

Gwp4me,


I didn't jump anything. We all agree that FF is the answer. I am unaware of any program that recommends that you FF at 4 months of age. So when I said FF and he went to look at a program, he would know not to start at this stage.


Gonehuntin, You are training! Everything you suggest is training and preparing. You are saying you don't FF. (Which I WOULD do before hunting)

Also Im not saying don't hunt them, if the are prepared hunt them. If not. Go ahead and risk it, its your dog not mine.

But since he obviously new to this, which we all were at one point, we should give him sound cautious advice. Which follows.

"The program is called Force fetch. I prefer the Dobbs method. You can find it on youtube. Do a search for "trained retrieve" by tri tronics. Its a 6 part series. Or get Bill Hilmanns video on FF.

Now, the most important advice Im going to give yours this. The issue you have is matter of preparation . You put the dog into a situation that it wasn't prepared for (trained for).
There are lots of things the dog needs to be prepared for. Gunfire, coming when called, etc...

This is why you shouldn't let the dog just hunt its first year and then train it.
Hard lesson to learn, but valuable if you learn from it.
It can be hard to fix.
Good luck!

OR get some pro help,or find a training group, or a good amateur trainer to help you through it."

Runningwild, And a word of caution. Pups eat birds because they enjoy it. Establishing a good recall is an important part of that of solving the problem. But I had a friend with a really nice dog he would comply immediately with the recall, but he would swallow the chukar on the way back. The key is to train the dog to handle a bird properly. Like I said, preperation.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:19 pm

Kiger, certainly I am training the dog, just not formally. Everything we do with a pup is training so everything is important. Teaching pup it's name, NO, HERE, KENNEL; those are all simple things we do in the house each day that train the pup. Will it reach 100% to any of them? Nope. But he'll be good enough to hunt. I just let them run wild in the woods and fields. If you notice, mine wear a tracker and an collar, though it isn't turned on. The more you can expose a pup to from eight weeks on while putting as LITTLE pressure on the pup as possible, the better dog he'll be. Then when he is old enough, we'll put a ton of pressure on him and finish the job. Correct development with guidance rather than interference is the key to a great young dog.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby Willie T » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:27 pm

Runningwild, lots of young puppies maul the first bird they get ahold of. Your pup likes birds, that's good. I'm guessing you are a first time handler/owner. So this is directed to someone training their first bird dog. When you work with your pup, try to set him up to succeed. Try to anticipate what might go wrong, so you can guide what happens to get the desired outcome. With bumpers or birds, as soon as the pup picks them up, you want him to come to you. Put a check cord on him. As soon as he grabs it, give the "here" command ONCE and use the check cord to get him moving to you. When you get him to you, love him up and let him hold the bird or bumper a bit. When you do take it, pitch it right back out. Giving it up isn't bad if you get to go get it again. You need to train a reliable "here". Until you do, no retrieves without the check cord. Not being able to call the pup back with the bird is where you came off the rails.
To get the reliable recall you need, never give the "here" command unless you are able to assure compliance first time. Resist the urge to test it. Consistency is the key. Over time you will get a conditioned response. Distractions will alter compliance, so be prepared. Training through distractions is how you "proof" or "screw down" commands. A four month old pup is not ready for the discipline it takes to proof your recall.
You will get a lot of advice regarding programs to follow and DVD's to watch, so I am going to go another direction. "Less is more" is a saying dog men and trainers use and you will hear, but almost nobody explains. It should guide your training, regardless of the program or method. What it means is to simplify. As an example, when I throw bumpers for my 5 month old Pudelpointer, he thinks we are just playing fetch. He is utilizing multiple commands. Fetch was broken down to it simplest steps. Each step is isolated and learned on its own. Then we incorporated:
1-whoa
2-sit
3-heel
4-release command
5-hold
6-here
7-leave it(drop)
By simplifying and learning all the parts, short term he is doing a respectable job in his first season. Long term, the pup has something to build on. Changes or added complexity will be less likely to blow his fuses. He will be well prepared for force fetch when it comes.
A "less is more" approach will yield a really nice dog. By simplifying and teaching less, then incorporating into hunting after it is learned, you can introduce more, with less confusion, and not impact range. A pup brought along in this manner will confidently (stylishly) interact with the handler.

Sorry about the novel and good luck with your pup.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:45 pm

Gonehuntin,

Ive seen far too many young dogs out of control to ever, ever, let someone do it again. The gained nothing from the experience.
A good well bred dog needs far less exposure than you think. A dog has a learning curve. Very steep at first contact, but quickly flattens out. Takes longer to flatten out with a pointer because of the care required around birds, but nonetheless, it flattens out pretty quick.

We have a new person who's dog is very hard mouthed. I don't believe the best advice is to let the dog run around untrained. If we assume , he has a well bred dog, training will not impact the dogs hunt at all.

I think maybe because of your experience, which you have a lot of , you have forgotten how much a new person needs to learn.

You say you teach "Here". "Here" is absolutely the command that would cause a dog to lose its independence. Its fine to have a tracking collar on the dog until you watch the dog on the monitor run onto a road and cant recall him!

running wild, Wille T just gave you excellent advice. I would just add, skip the birds for awhile. the dog is birdy. No need to worry about that.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:17 am

Runningwild,

Asking for dog training advice on the internet and then sorting through the responses can be a challenge for anyone. If you read them carefully GH, Myself, Willie T are giving you highly similar advice.

Here is my current puppy working at play retrieve in the snow fence tunnel I recommended. One is the homemade puppy bumper and the second is a dead pigeon. The photos were taken one week after I received my puppy at 9 weeks of age. CC, Gently trained Recall Command, Play retrieve in a restricted area (tunnel/hallway), Bird introduction in the same restricted area with CC on and Recall Command in place are a quick summary of what several of us have recommended. It has worked well for me across decades and multiple puppies, and you could accomplish a great deal using the approach in the months between now and when your puppy is ready for a FF program.

Just wanting the best for you and your puppy.

Image

Image

I also think the Joan Bailey Book - How to Help Gundogs Train Themselves would be very helpful to you and your pup as would the Perfection Kennel series of DVDs.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:35 pm

Just remember runningwild that some things you take from a pup can never be put back. Theses are versatile dogs and require confidence and independence to realize their full potential.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:20 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Runningwild,

Asking for dog training advice on the internet and then sorting through the responses can be a challenge for anyone. If you read them carefully GH, Myself, Willie T are giving you highly similar advice.

Here is my current puppy working at play retrieve in the snow fence tunnel I recommended. One is the homemade puppy bumper and the second is a dead pigeon. The photos were taken one week after I received my puppy at 9 weeks of age. CC, Gently trained Recall Command, Play retrieve in a restricted area (tunnel/hallway), Bird introduction in the same restricted area with CC on and Recall Command in place are a quick summary of what several of us have recommended. It has worked well for me across decades and multiple puppies, and you could accomplish a great deal using the approach in the months between now and when your puppy is ready for a FF program.

Just wanting the best for you and your puppy.

Image


Image

I also think the Joan Bailey Book - How to Help Gundogs Train Themselves would be very helpful to you and your pup as would the Perfection Kennel series of DVDs.


Yup, what he said!

Too many guys get so caught up in getting to the end result that they never sit back, relax and take advantage of nurturing what the pup inherited.

Good post,

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Re: Eating Bird

Postby Sooty42 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:59 pm

AverageGuy,
How and what do you use to make your homemade puppy bumpers?
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:17 am

They make puppy bumpers or paint rollers work well too.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:51 am

Sooty42 wrote:AverageGuy,
How and what do you use to make your homemade puppy bumpers?


At that age I use the inside of toilet paper roll and wrap duct tape around it. Extremely light and small enough diameter for the puppy to easily get a bite on it. As they grow I move to the commercial puppy bumpers that GH mentions.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby madduckdog » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:47 pm

there are a lot of experts... but I will tell you what I have found out is true .....some dogs have a tendency to be hard mouth... even after force fetch... or maybe no one has explained how hold goes into don't be so rough on the bird with out some mistakes... doves and woodcock can still get roughed up by my 2 year old DD

alot of DD will be very rough on a live bird untill he is not a live bird no more.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby woodboro » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:04 am

madduckdog wrote:there are a lot of experts... but I will tell you what I have found out is true .....some dogs have a tendency to be hard mouth... even after force fetch... or maybe no one has explained how hold goes into don't be so rough on the bird with out some mistakes... doves and woodcock can still get roughed up by my 2 year old DD

alot of DD will be very rough on a live bird untill he is not a live bird no more.


All dogs are that way to some degree. The start of force fetch is where to determine the mind set of the dog.
I had one dog would barely hold the object like it was 'bad news'

When the dog was done , wonderful retriever as well as holder.
Throughout the years training with objects in force fetch , I try not to wonder far from what has worked.
But 2 years ago I came up with another 'go to' item I created.
I cut the ends off of a rubber bumper , and ran a dowl through it, and added blocks.
The dog I was training liked holding these rubber bumpers , but not wood. The incorporation was great dog picked off table like a real trooper.
My invisionment was to increase size of blocks to make heavier , but the dog eventually picked up anything so my wooden bar-bells came back into play. :lol:
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby Densa44 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:16 pm

Puppy bumpers. If you can get your hands on a roll of worn out fire hose and an industrial sewing machine or if it is just for you an awl works fine. Stuff it with what ever you like. Cork is great, Styrofoam is not bad if you don't need weight. See what you can find that is free and works.

Scent with vanilla extract, cheap and non toxic.
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Re: Eating Bird

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:24 pm

gwp4me2 wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:Runnignwild,
This is why you shouldn't let the dog just hunt its first year and then train it.
Hard lesson to learn, but valuable if you learn from it.
It can be hard to fix.
Good luck!

Kind of jumping the gun aren't we? The pup is 4 mo. old. The mistake was made as part of the early exposure. Letting a dog just hunt the first year doesn't mean it is totally untouched or exposed. It means you don't/shouldn't wait until you have a finished dog before going hunting. Many, many people only have one dog at a time and are wanting a good hunting dog. A well-bred hunting dog should be able to have a successful first season as a great building block with nothing more than 'play training' and a reasonable recall. Also most people coming on here for the first time asking questions are not experienced trainers capable of putting a very young dog through FF without causing more problems than they cure with a v-dog.


X2... never seen a young pup not try to swallow its first dove or quail.

My current one was the most possessive pup I've ever had, and I still hunted her the first season. I took time on stationary commands, and got her to "down" so that she wouldn't walk off with it. Gradually, she came closer and closer... she delivered to hand her second season.

Not a big deal and more to be lost by not utilizing that first season to expose, build independence and confidence, learn to use the nose and figure birds couldn't be caught.

That's how you get a pup that "rolls", uses its tool set, and produces game for the gun.

A little bit of OB goes a long way with a good versatile pup.

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