VJP-Pointing, A Question

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VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby randomnut » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:09 am

What will happen if I decline to let my pup complete the pointing portion of the test?
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby CohanseyDD » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:17 am

You don't have the option of opting out of the pointing portion of any test you enter your dog in. It's a Natural Ability test. Why would you even want to do so?
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:02 pm

You can't decline, your dog will fail.

Are you worried it will catch a bird?
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby randomnut » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:51 pm

Yes. The dog has lost its point, and test birds don't fly real well. I see no point in rewarding him with a caught bird, or 3, so I had considered just leashing the dog after the field search.
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby Steven » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:02 pm

Just do your part to make sure he is pointing before the test and doesn't catch ANY beforehand. He should do well on his first contact. If that one doesn't fly well, the judges will be a bit more understanding if he doesn't do as well on the 2nd.

Can you describe more about what he's doing, how you train him, and what may have caused the change where he lost it (implies he was pointing well previously)? We might can help.
"A bird dog already wants to find and point birds. It's my job to take nothing away from that and add those little things that WE want them to do. . ." - Maurice Lindley
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:43 pm

Where are you testing? Any opportunity to find wild birds before the test for a refresher?
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby randomnut » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:56 pm

Steven, he has started pointing again recently, but not birds. He still charges hard once he hits scent.

I've got two older dogs, and when hunting season started, I hunted them all together. This made the other dogs break point, and caused the youngest to charge.

I quit hunting the dogs together very quickly, but he quit pointing all together.

Couple this with a complete lack of wild birds this year, and it's been tough.

My older dogs caught a lot of birds, but still figured out pointing in their first season. I attempted using chukar in launchers, since I had great success with them in the past, but this years chukar didn't fly well, and he caught two.

I now keep him on the long line when using birds in launchers, but after 4 or 5 sessions now, he hasn't yet started pointing again.

I don't consider this dog a breeding prospect, just hope to make him a solid hunting partner. IMO, failing the VJP is a better option than letting him catch another bird, causing more of a setback.
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby randomnut » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Where are you testing? Any opportunity to find wild birds before the test for a refresher?


I'm gonna attempt a few training days in western Oklahoma before testing, but the ridiculous heat has made that tough also.
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby Steven » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:11 pm

randomnut wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Where are you testing? Any opportunity to find wild birds before the test for a refresher?


I'm gonna attempt a few training days in western Oklahoma before testing, but the ridiculous heat has made that tough also.


Do you live in Oklahoma? If so, where? I can probably connect you to some guys who could help you.

randomnut wrote:Steven, he has started pointing again recently, but not birds. He still charges hard once he hits scent.

I've got two older dogs, and when hunting season started, I hunted them all together. This made the other dogs break point, and caused the youngest to charge.

I quit hunting the dogs together very quickly, but he quit pointing all together.

Couple this with a complete lack of wild birds this year, and it's been tough.

My older dogs caught a lot of birds, but still figured out pointing in their first season. I attempted using chukar in launchers, since I had great success with them in the past, but this years chukar didn't fly well, and he caught two.

I now keep him on the long line when using birds in launchers, but after 4 or 5 sessions now, he hasn't yet started pointing again.

I don't consider this dog a breeding prospect, just hope to make him a solid hunting partner. IMO, failing the VJP is a better option than letting him catch another bird, causing more of a setback.
My guess is that you are waiting too long before you pop the launcher because you are hoping he'll establish point. Seen it done too many times :D You need to pop the launcher as soon as you even think he smells the bird at this stage.
"A bird dog already wants to find and point birds. It's my job to take nothing away from that and add those little things that WE want them to do. . ." - Maurice Lindley
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:41 pm

I use good flying pigeons in launchers because they fly away and do not land where a dog can chase them to ground like too many pen raised birds do. I launch the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird.
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby jlw034 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:54 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I use good flying pigeons in launchers because they fly away and do not land where a dog can chase them to ground like too many pen raised birds do. I launch the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird.


x2
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby Duckdon » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:57 am

AverageGuy wrote:I use good flying pigeons in launchers because they fly away and do not land where a dog can chase them to ground like too many pen raised birds do. I launch the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird.


x3
I assume you are steadying with a check cord. Pigeons ate 100X better than pen raised game birds for initial training and they are cheaper if you need lots of birds. I have my own Homer pen.
Have a look at my Kennel Facebook page and the videos I have posted on working dogs on steady in the yard. Some birds are on a line, some free flying.
Tundramoor Drahthaar Kennels.
I do a ton of "de-sensitizing on young dogs to get them to steady if needed. This is Birds in the face work. This is an everyday training event, in the yard, until they will be reliable and stand.
Good luck.

FYI: If your dog is not ready for the VJP, just don't run him. If you decide later to breed you will need to get a Hare Track done and the VGP. If you don't plan to breed, what does it really matter?
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby woodboro » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:48 pm

Duckdon wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:I use good flying pigeons in launchers because they fly away and do not land where a dog can chase them to ground like too many pen raised birds do. I launch the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird.


x3
I assume you are steadying with a check cord. Pigeons ate 100X better than pen raised game birds for initial training and they are cheaper if you need lots of birds. I have my own Homer pen.
Have a look at my Kennel Facebook page and the videos I have posted on working dogs on steady in the yard. Some birds are on a line, some free flying.
Tundramoor Drahthaar Kennels.
I do a ton of "de-sensitizing on young dogs to get them to steady if needed. This is Birds in the face work. This is an everyday training event, in the yard, until they will be reliable and stand.
Good luck.

FYI: If your dog is not ready for the VJP, just don't run him. If you decide later to breed you will need to get a Hare Track done and the VGP. If you don't plan to breed, what does it really matter?
Don and Crew

If your a member of a breed club , you are not promoting a club , by advising a member to not run a dog.
I think you better start reevaluating what your club represents, and if does not fit your needs , quite the organization.
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:28 pm

Says who? Of course he can check with his breeder first, but if it was my pup I'd want him to enjoy his hunting dog, not spend a weekend and $500 to be miserable. Maybe the judges will set the dog up for success, the dog will nail the rabbit track and everyone has a great day... OR pup catches 3 planted pheasants and the owner has to deal with additional poor reinforcement of bad habits. Tough call for sure.

Scratch the pup from the breeding program, enjoy your dog, appreciate what the club provides and hopefully test the next dog.
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Re: VJP-Pointing, A Question

Postby randomnut » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:43 pm

Misskiwi67, I'm not certain, but I think WB is mainly taking issue with the last paragraph from DuckDon, and I'd have to agree. The NA test is meant for NA, not trained ability.

I also agree with what you mentioned. I will go ahead and test this pup. I've mentioned my concerns with the test director, and he has assured me we will do whatever we need to keep pup from catching a bird.

Nonetheless, pup won't be a stud dog, but I'm sure he'll turn into a fine hunter over the summer.

Thanks for all advice.
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