Why do you test your dog ?????

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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby slistoe » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:43 am

If I were buying a pup from someone I didn't know personally I would rather see the test scores as a valid assessment of the potential of the pups than if the fellow simply says "My bitch is an awesome hunting dog." There is so much variability in what any one individual brings to the "hunting" discussion that an endorsement of a good hunting dog really has zero meaning. Test scores are established criteria by independent assessors.
So... IMO, saying tests are "exploited" by breeders for selling pups is at best a cop out and at worst sour grapes.
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby leadeyedbugger » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:45 pm

when i owned a dd, i tested the dog mostly for fun and to see other dogs and meet other people. vjp test btw.
i already knew what my dogs strengths and weaknesses were. she scored about how i expected. the score didnt mean too much to me as she was not worthy of breeding.
but it was a fun and interesting experience. saw a couple of really nice pups, saw a couple of really bad pups and saw some ok pups. met some great people and had a good time.
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby Densa44 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:06 am

I guess for the reasons the other fellows have mentioned, to see what I'm producing as a breeder and to give the potential customer an un- biased opinion of the dog's potential.

My real reason is because I like to do it. I've been holding a leash for 50 years and I have friends who can claim loner than that. I'm interested in learning new ways to address problems I'm having. I also like to see other dogs of all breeds and see the differences from mine. It is an excellent place (the test) to see if the dog does as well as I think it should or are there training problems holding it back.

I saw on here that one breeder (I think) was saying he had dogs that he knew wouldn't do well thus he didn't want to test them. Those were the dogs that I was referring to above. I offer to help the handler to train their dog and see if we can do better, and so far so good.

It is my hobby and has been for a long time, I guess now it is both my vocation and avocation.
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby Whiskers » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:07 pm

To keep me honest as a trainer, as in making sure the dog gets trained. Can't put it off for "another/better day"...
To let the dog shine and grow into it's full potential...
For my breeder(s), to assist them with better overall evaluations of their breeding program...
Game conservation...
The social interaction and camaraderie of like-minded people...
It's fun to play doggie games...
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby STait » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:05 am

I don't test, I trial, or at least my dogs trial. I see it as a form of testing to find out the individual dog's attributes and faults. I learn a lot about the natural abilities of the dogs starting from a young age, in the field and hunting. But trialing tells me more about the strength, stamina, and even bird finding abilities that I may not be able to deduce by only hunting them.

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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby JONOV » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:17 pm

No one admits it, but I imagine plenty do it for pride/bragging rights/competition. It's like lifting weights; ask someone and they'll tell you "for myself, for my health, etc" but they won't say they want to look good for the opposite sex or to be the strongest sob in the room as a means to stake out some pride in accomplishing what others don't/can't. FTR, I don't own a dog in the German breeding system.

And, I do know a woman that trained a nice UT prize 1 dog because the breeder asked her to at least run the NA test for posterity. And it's a dog that was neutered due to a genetic flaw.
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby woodboro » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:10 pm

This thread was to educate people that want to understand the testing system for breed clubs.
Not for a non-member of a breed club , to tell individuals why it is done.

Jonv - Breed tests are to evaluate pups from a litter so that the breeder knows that breeding was on the right track.
The second reason the Euro's created the test system is to help guide handlers into training their dogs to the fullest abilities of the breed,
so the hunter has the most efficient trained dog.
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:58 am

woodboro wrote:This thread was to educate people that want to understand the testing system for breed clubs.
Not for a non-member of a breed club , to tell individuals why it is done.

Jonv - Breed tests are to evaluate pups from a litter so that the breeder knows that breeding was on the right track.
The second reason the Euro's created the test system is to help guide handlers into training their dogs to the fullest abilities of the breed,
so the hunter has the most efficient trained dog.


Might want to go back and revisit the true purpose of the tests... ;)

Personally, I don't mind who explains them so long as the explanation is accurate... for the most part no one seems to thoroughly understand their purpose nor the application.

It's kind of like how people think Verein Deutsch Drahthaar means "true" DD... it ain't so Bo'...

Just my $.02,

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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby boarhunter » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:43 pm

A voice from Germany referring to tests - I posted this several years ago in this forum already - :

German tests (in Germany) are primarily aimed at providing the dog with a hunting license, which is, by law, a requirement for using a dog to be hunted. Regulations are set by the Ministries of Agriculture and Forestry of each of the sixteen states (Germany is a Federal Republic), and these regulations vary from state to state, from slightly to significantly. As a general (simplified) rule, obtaining a license (in some states termed Jagdeignungspruefung, in others Gebrauchspruefung needs successfully passing the HZP topics, plus the blood track part from VGP, plus, most important, the "Verhalten auf dem Stand" part from VGP, for example "Obiendience during drive hunt, etc." A dog that does not fulfill the requirements is not allowed to be hunted, and this is taken seriously.

So now, the State Ministries define the regulations and by-laws but they do not have own judges. Instead, they make use of the JGHV judges. JGHV judging is (with some exceptions) not breed specific and not aimed (at least not primarily) to provide the breed clubs with information on performance. I would like to emphasize this again: Hunting dogs in Germany are tested because they must be, very much like airplane pilots must be trained and tested before flying, and the state authorities, not the breed clubs, set the rules. The vast majority of tested dogs belongs to simple hunters (i.e., me) in need of a certified dog. The sometimes complex relationship between ministries (Regulations!), JGHV (testing!), and breed clubs (breeding!) continuously produces an enormous output of articles and pamphlets in the German hunting community.

The success of the German versatile dog breeds (provided that, after all, one would admit that they are successful) is, IMHO, mainly based on the pressure, which is put on the puppy-buyers or handlers to train and test the dogs to be "useful" by state regulations. As my Spanish friend and DK owner commented: "Your German dogs are so good because of your typical German obsession to regulate and control everything". With a grain of salt ......

Regards,

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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:13 am

boarhunter wrote:A voice from Germany referring to tests - I posted this several years ago in this forum already - :

German tests (in Germany) are primarily aimed at providing the dog with a hunting license, which is, by law, a requirement for using a dog to be hunted. Regulations are set by the Ministries of Agriculture and Forestry of each of the sixteen states (Germany is a Federal Republic), and these regulations vary from state to state, from slightly to significantly. As a general (simplified) rule, obtaining a license (in some states termed Jagdeignungspruefung, in others Gebrauchspruefung needs successfully passing the HZP topics, plus the blood track part from VGP, plus, most important, the "Verhalten auf dem Stand" part from VGP, for example "Obiendience during drive hunt, etc." A dog that does not fulfill the requirements is not allowed to be hunted, and this is taken seriously.

So now, the State Ministries define the regulations and by-laws but they do not have own judges. Instead, they make use of the JGHV judges. JGHV judging is (with some exceptions) not breed specific and not aimed (at least not primarily) to provide the breed clubs with information on performance. I would like to emphasize this again: Hunting dogs in Germany are tested because they must be, very much like airplane pilots must be trained and tested before flying, and the state authorities, not the breed clubs, set the rules. The vast majority of tested dogs belongs to simple hunters (i.e., me) in need of a certified dog. The sometimes complex relationship between ministries (Regulations!), JGHV (testing!), and breed clubs (breeding!) continuously produces an enormous output of articles and pamphlets in the German hunting community.

The success of the German versatile dog breeds (provided that, after all, one would admit that they are successful) is, IMHO, mainly based on the pressure, which is put on the puppy-buyers or handlers to train and test the dogs to be "useful" by state regulations. As my Spanish friend and DK owner commented: "Your German dogs are so good because of your typical German obsession to regulate and control everything". With a grain of salt ......

Regards,

Boarhunter


Boarhunter,

First, thanks for the post... always good to get the "skinny" from someone who lives in the culture of the versatile dogs in Europe.

Second, in reference to the behavior during the drive hunt... is this also part of the hunting etiquette in Germany?

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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby ckirsch » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:32 am

3drahthaars wrote: for the most part no one seems to thoroughly understand their purpose nor the application.


So if the rest of us are unable to grasp the purpose or application of testing, perhaps you could share it with us........
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby 3drahthaars » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:18 pm

ckirsch wrote:
3drahthaars wrote: for the most part no one seems to thoroughly understand their purpose nor the application.


So if the rest of us are unable to grasp the purpose or application of testing, perhaps you could share it with us........


The individual scores of a pup by themselves are useless.

The system was devised to collect data. So, as you collect over time scores out of the different litters of studs and bitches you see trends... and, it is through the trends that the decisions are made.

To say the "70" VJP, "180" HZP pup proves the breeder made the correct breeding, much less that the particular pup is good breed stock is a misapplication of the system... it is only one data point.

In my line of work we need a minimum sample size of 30 to even consider a trend.

This is not rocket science... it's a little common sense and just the difference between taking the time to listen to someone who knows vs. just hearing what you wish to hear. I spent the better part of my first 25 years in this thing LISTENING to some of the people who got this DD thing started.

I'm only sharing what I was told long before everyone became internet experts and Holiday Inn Express qualified individuals to be brain surgeons... ;)


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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:17 pm

boarhunter wrote:A voice from Germany referring to tests - I posted this several years ago in this forum already - :

German tests (in Germany) are primarily aimed at providing the dog with a hunting license, which is, by law, a requirement for using a dog to be hunted. Regulations are set by the Ministries of Agriculture and Forestry of each of the sixteen states (Germany is a Federal Republic), and these regulations vary from state to state, from slightly to significantly. As a general (simplified) rule, obtaining a license (in some states termed Jagdeignungspruefung, in others Gebrauchspruefung needs successfully passing the HZP topics, plus the blood track part from VGP, plus, most important, the "Verhalten auf dem Stand" part from VGP, for example "Obiendience during drive hunt, etc." A dog that does not fulfill the requirements is not allowed to be hunted, and this is taken seriously.

So now, the State Ministries define the regulations and by-laws but they do not have own judges. Instead, they make use of the JGHV judges. JGHV judging is (with some exceptions) not breed specific and not aimed (at least not primarily) to provide the breed clubs with information on performance. I would like to emphasize this again: Hunting dogs in Germany are tested because they must be, very much like airplane pilots must be trained and tested before flying, and the state authorities, not the breed clubs, set the rules. The vast majority of tested dogs belongs to simple hunters (i.e., me) in need of a certified dog. The sometimes complex relationship between ministries (Regulations!), JGHV (testing!), and breed clubs (breeding!) continuously produces an enormous output of articles and pamphlets in the German hunting community.

The success of the German versatile dog breeds (provided that, after all, one would admit that they are successful) is, IMHO, mainly based on the pressure, which is put on the puppy-buyers or handlers to train and test the dogs to be "useful" by state regulations. As my Spanish friend and DK owner commented: "Your German dogs are so good because of your typical German obsession to regulate and control everything". With a grain of salt ......

Regards,

Boarhunter


Boarhunter,

In the US it is pretty common to train a pup to come when called, load up, introduce an ecollar, teach some play retrieving, introduce gunfire, water and birds and then take the pup hunting as much as possible in its first season. Then after the first hunting season and prior to the second, considerably more work to train more OB and field manners around retrieving to hand and steadiness in the presence of game is done.

I am curious. Does the system in Germany allow a pup to be hunted in its first season, before it has passed hunts tests which requires some of the formal training that is commonly deferred until after the first hunting season here in the States? Appreciate your insights and your post. Very interesting and informative.
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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby boarhunter » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:21 am

Second, in reference to the behavior during the drive hunt... is this also part of the hunting etiquette in Germany?

Of course it is. The highlights of the hunting year are the drive hunts during the late fall and winter months, where hunting parties aim at hoofed game (deer, fallow deer, roe deer and wild boar). Parties may be small or big (I once attend one with about 40 people (riflemen plus drivers) where we "harvested" 23 pieces of big game. You cannot do that without absolutely reliable and obedient dogs ! Myself or my wife are invited for such parties not because of us, but because of our dog. In fact, the dog is invited. If you at such event show up with a dog that does't have manners you will never be invited anymore. Again: the hunting success here depends on the dogs. Unfortunately, my dog is now 15 and retired from hunting. There are quite many hunting partners who regret this. There is always a lack of good dogs that can do their task.
Does the system in Germany allow a pup to be hunted in its first season, before it has passed hunts tests which requires some of the formal training that is commonly deferred until after the first hunting season here in the States? Appreciate your insights and your post. Very interesting and informative.

In the strict (legal) sense you are only allowed to hunt your dog if he has the Jagdeignungspruefung (JEP) or Gebrauchspruefung (GP) (see below). Of course, you are allowed "to train" your dog for that tests and it is clear that distinction between "training" and "hunting" is not always possible. Hunting in Germany is much more towards big game and small predators compared to the US (there are some regional exceptions where birds and small game like hares are still relatively abundant). I would say that most dogs start with real hunting after HZP (or JEP or GP), that is during the fall after their birth year. There is general agreement that working on big game before and after the shot is more challenging and it certainly takes much more time for dogs to gain experience in order to finally "excel" in doing their job (see above).
Hope that answers your question.

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Re: Why do you test your dog ?????

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:45 am

boarhunter wrote:
Second, in reference to the behavior during the drive hunt... is this also part of the hunting etiquette in Germany?

Of course it is. The highlights of the hunting year are the drive hunts during the late fall and winter months, where hunting parties aim at hoofed game (deer, fallow deer, roe deer and wild boar). Parties may be small or big (I once attend one with about 40 people (riflemen plus drivers) where we "harvested" 23 pieces of big game. You cannot do that without absolutely reliable and obedient dogs ! Myself or my wife are invited for such parties not because of us, but because of our dog. In fact, the dog is invited. If you at such event show up with a dog that does't have manners you will never be invited anymore. Again: the hunting success here depends on the dogs. Unfortunately, my dog is now 15 and retired from hunting. There are quite many hunting partners who regret this. There is always a lack of good dogs that can do their task.
Does the system in Germany allow a pup to be hunted in its first season, before it has passed hunts tests which requires some of the formal training that is commonly deferred until after the first hunting season here in the States? Appreciate your insights and your post. Very interesting and informative.

In the strict (legal) sense you are only allowed to hunt your dog if he has the Jagdeignungspruefung (JEP) or Gebrauchspruefung (GP) (see below). Of course, you are allowed "to train" your dog for that tests and it is clear that distinction between "training" and "hunting" is not always possible. Hunting in Germany is much more towards big game and small predators compared to the US (there are some regional exceptions where birds and small game like hares are still relatively abundant). I would say that most dogs start with real hunting after HZP (or JEP or GP), that is during the fall after their birth year. There is general agreement that working on big game before and after the shot is more challenging and it certainly takes much more time for dogs to gain experience in order to finally "excel" in doing their job (see above).
Hope that answers your question.

Regards
Boarhunter


Had to highlight, because I don't think many in the US are aware of some of these cultural and geographical novelties in Europe...

Would you say that the dogs used for big game and predators are not bred with so high of an emphasis on pointing as we do here in the US? Whereas, those bred in regions with more smaller game are...

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