First German test!

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First German test!

Postby Densa44 » Mon May 30, 2016 8:40 am

In typical Canadian fashion it was done our way. 5 days in the rain in very rural British Columbia. Canadian rain forest. There were only 4 dogs and one was a 7 month old German PP (ours). The judges came from Nova Scotia Colorado and Washington. The judges, handlers and host were all very fine dog people but I don't think that the club can afford to operate these tests with so few dogs. The host donated the birds that we used and that was a generous gift.

Because in Canada, most parts anyway, there are no wild boars, some foxes are protected, deer can't be hunted with a dog and there are not enough rabbits to hunt and chase. The club pointed pheasants, and tracked a flightless rooster.

There were some behaviours that would be frowned upon in other tests that I've been to, such as catching the rooster, not coming back to the handler and eating the bird.

Other than that, to this old dog guy, the test looked just about like the NAVHDA NA test except for the water work. The judges would be just as well qualified to test dogs in either system IMO.

I used to think that versatile meant, to point AND retrieve, maybe I'm wrong here, it may mean to the Europeans to point and track hoofed animals.

It would be great if an accommodation could be found to work together with NAVHDA for the good of the breed, because I don't think the club can keep up like this with so few dogs.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
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Re: First German test!

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon May 30, 2016 11:41 am

Densa44 wrote:In typical Canadian fashion it was done our way. 5 days in the rain in very rural British Columbia. Canadian rain forest. There were only 4 dogs and one was a 7 month old German PP (ours). The judges came from Nova Scotia Colorado and Washington. The judges, handlers and host were all very fine dog people but I don't think that the club can afford to operate these tests with so few dogs. The host donated the birds that we used and that was a generous gift.

Because in Canada, most parts anyway, there are no wild boars, some foxes are protected, deer can't be hunted with a dog and there are not enough rabbits to hunt and chase. The club pointed pheasants, and tracked a flightless rooster.

There were some behaviours that would be frowned upon in other tests that I've been to, such as catching the rooster, not coming back to the handler and eating the bird.

Other than that, to this old dog guy, the test looked just about like the NAVHDA NA test except for the water work. The judges would be just as well qualified to test dogs in either system IMO.

I used to think that versatile meant, to point AND retrieve, maybe I'm wrong here, it may mean to the Europeans to point and track hoofed animals.

It would be great if an accommodation could be found to work together with NAVHDA for the good of the breed, because I don't think the club can keep up like this with so few dogs.


Sir,

You speak treason!!!

NAVHDA is baaaaaaad!

All joking aside, it is a shame that a relatively small group of fanatics have done as much as possible to drive a wedge between JGHV and NAVHDA.

Because of the exception for the hare tracks NA does appear to be similar to VJP .

But, the UT is VGP "lite" in comparison. Something about the rabbit drag seems to separate the men from the boys. Not to mention that drags are longer, the fox, search w and w/o the duck, Stoebern, heeling on/of lead, drive hunt, etc. And, it's a two day test... in comparison that lasts TWO entire days.

Congratulations and welcome to the German side :D .

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Re: First German test!

Postby Chadwick » Mon May 30, 2016 5:52 pm

3drahthaars wrote:But, the UT is VGP "lite" in comparison. Something about the rabbit drag seems to separate the men from the boys. Not to mention that drags are longer, the fox, search w and w/o the duck, Stoebern, heeling on/of lead, drive hunt, etc. And, it's a two day test... in comparison that lasts TWO entire days.


The UT and VGP tests don't seem that comparable to me. VGP seems mainly about game recovery and strict obedience. There are some elements of that in a UT, but the steady to WSF and retrieve in the bird field in a UT seems like a family significant difference from a VGP. It would be nice if the German system would add some type of field excellence certificate that would be a tested component that is similar to the NAVHDA UT field test.
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Re: First German test!

Postby Densa44 » Mon May 30, 2016 6:42 pm

You can teach a dog anything. Many of the people on this site could train their dogs to meet what ever test was set for them. The rub will be, in Canada at least, last year they had 2 dogs this year 4 and the costs are very high. I don't think the volunteers can keep this up.

If the system is German and they set the rules I guess that is it. My father always told me that you can't tell a German anything. Maybe he was right. It does seem to me, sad that we have competing systems when there are so few of us to start with.

If a vote from the NAVHDA side to add German components that may make the test harder and last longer, I'm all for it. I'll never be able to go to the invitational they way things are so an enhanced UT or UT + run at the club level, if it combined the two groups would be fine with me.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: First German test!

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon May 30, 2016 8:29 pm

Chadwick wrote:
3drahthaars wrote:But, the UT is VGP "lite" in comparison. Something about the rabbit drag seems to separate the men from the boys. Not to mention that drags are longer, the fox, search w and w/o the duck, Stoebern, heeling on/of lead, drive hunt, etc. And, it's a two day test... in comparison that lasts TWO entire days.


The UT and VGP tests don't seem that comparable to me. VGP seems mainly about game recovery and strict obedience. There are some elements of that in a UT, but the steady to WSF and retrieve in the bird field in a UT seems like a family significant difference from a VGP. It would be nice if the German system would add some type of field excellence certificate that would be a tested component that is similar to the NAVHDA UT field test.


You might wish to review the VGPO again...

Steadiness in VGP is to W&S is the same. Our regs' actually encourage a handler to shoot over his dog (big difference in shooting a bird over your dog than "handling" your dog while you are shooting a blank "somewhere").

The retrieve of a "winged bird" is performed in VGP without a "fetch" command.

And, anecdotally, I'd say that you would be amazed at how many dogs fail the simple rabbit drag (not in NAVHDA).

Other than the running in braces which is about the only thing a VGP doesn't include that I see as insightful, and then again it's only done in the Invitational I still see UT as VGP "lite".

Bear in mind Bodo was a VR before he came to North America. NAVHDA is "loosely" based on the JGHV system.

In my opinion, the JGHV system isn't needing to include anything else. It got us including NAVHDA where we are today, and the reality is that many VGP dogs simply use UT as a warm up.

I don't really think any system has to change. I truly think that the two systems complement one another... running in braces provides important information for the potential breeding value of a JGHV dog!!!!

And, like I mentioned the rabbit drag says a lot about the retrieving reliability of a dog.

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Re: First German test!

Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon May 30, 2016 9:27 pm

Densa44 wrote:
If a vote from the NAVHDA side to add German components that may make the test harder and last longer, I'm all for it. I'll never be able to go to the invitational they way things are so an enhanced UT or UT + run at the club level, if it combined the two groups would be fine with me.


So the test was too simple?? It's a puppy test, were you expecting different? Train your dog for HZP and VGP if you want to do more with your dog.
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Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: First German test!

Postby Densa44 » Mon May 30, 2016 10:49 pm

You've missed the point, the dog will run NA this August and UT next August. Those are the only tests we have available to us. Ditto the older dog she will run UT this August.

The next Canadian German test may be on the East coast and if they don't get more dogs I don't think that it will last.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: First German test!

Postby KenDD » Tue May 31, 2016 8:12 am

Densa44 this has been one of the biggest testing years in Group Canada I believe that there were 33 dogs that tested VJP this spring and this fall there are 4 different HZP tests scheduled right across the country and there is also a VGP scheduled for Ontario. So you do have options and Group Canada has been doing just fine and has been since 1974.

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Re: First German test!

Postby Densa44 » Tue May 31, 2016 10:39 am

Well if they are in good shape that's great. Ontario is not really an option for us, it is a big country. It was a 14 hour drive round trip for a point and a track. Here in the west we have lots of real estate and not many dogs.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: First German test!

Postby KenDD » Tue May 31, 2016 6:24 pm

Well I know all about the distance involved with testing.....most times for me to test I drive 8-10 hours then catch a 12 hr ferry ride then drive another 6 hours one way just to get there. Unless I fly which I do on occasion. The last few years there has been tests in Manitoba as well even VGP..... You can also drive down to the US. So there are options.
Now I am not speaking for Group Canada in any official capacity but Group Canada does what it can to get dogs tested and BC was a prime example of if there are dogs to test then they will get it done. I have hosted all levels of testing here in Newfoundland and now with the test out in BC there have been tests from coast to coast. It was not too many years ago that the only tests in Canada were Ontario and Nova Scotia so things are progressing and the tests are more readily available.

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Re: First German test!

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:44 am

KenDD wrote:Well I know all about the distance involved with testing.....most times for me to test I drive 8-10 hours then catch a 12 hr ferry ride then drive another 6 hours one way just to get there. Unless I fly which I do on occasion. The last few years there has been tests in Manitoba as well even VGP..... You can also drive down to the US. So there are options.
Now I am not speaking for Group Canada in any official capacity but Group Canada does what it can to get dogs tested and BC was a prime example of if there are dogs to test then they will get it done. I have hosted all levels of testing here in Newfoundland and now with the test out in BC there have been tests from coast to coast. It was not too many years ago that the only tests in Canada were Ontario and Nova Scotia so things are progressing and the tests are more readily available.

Ken

I concur with Ken.

He has an unusually difficult travel. But, I remember 12-16 hours was common in the old days with VDD tests.

I think it is especially important for you to JGHV test, because the PP need to get a hold in NA.

Several years ago, I judged the first VPP-GNA VJP in NA to help them out. Unfortunately, they lost momentum.

Nice dogs, an alternative for some to the DD.

Like Ken said, you can find opportunities "south" if you look.

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Re: First German test!

Postby Constructeur » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:38 pm

Someone above posted that it's illegal in Canada to hunt/track big game with a dog. What's the point of all that steering wheel time then?
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Re: First German test!

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:40 pm

I'm not tracking... Just walking my dog... On a leash... In the timber...
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Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: First German test!

Postby KenDD » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:39 am

Not illegal in all Provinces.......
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Re: First German test!

Postby linderhof » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:27 am

It is now legal to use tracking dogs to retrieve big game and Deer hunting with hounds is a long standing tradition. So j can see some growth coming in Ontario anyway.
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