VJP Obedience

DKV and VDD, etc

Moderator: Moderator Pack

VJP Obedience

Postby randomnut » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:24 pm

Can anybody give me an idea of what is looked for during the VJP concerning obedience? I have not worked my pup on obedience much yet.
randomnut
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby CohanseyDD » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:47 am

Obedience is NOT under evaluation at the VJP. That will come with the HZP. Cooperation is being evaluated at the VJP. You should download a version of the VZPO, which covers everything that is expected of your pup during both tests.
CohanseyDD
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:53 am

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby randomnut » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:25 am

10-4. I was reading the book last night and thought I saw that. I must have misread. Thanks
randomnut
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby TobyTx » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:37 pm

I would have some obedience on my dog. I had a hard time getting my dog back after he pointed and chased birds. Also after the tracking and then chased the rabbit. Makes testing go easier. Oh and waiting your turn to do the rabbit track. Maybe a quite command and make sure my dog could sit and be quite would have helped my during test day.

Co-operation and obedience, tricky thing for the first time dog handler to know the difference between.
Cabo vom Sendero vjp 69 hzp np
TobyTx
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: Texas

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:17 pm

Cohansey is correct that OB is not evaluated during the VJP, only cooperation.

That said, the difference between the two seems to be nebulous to most handlers and more judges than we care to admit.

Obedience is compliance to a command... you say sit, dog sits, dog is obedient, as is the converse.

Cooperation is the dog's natural desire to maintain contact with the handler, basically a dog that isn't a self-hunter.

What some judges look for to give an "11" in cooperation is a mystery to me. My thoughts is that the harder a pup has to try to maintain contact, the more cooperative it is. E.g. a pup tearing up an "11" search that changes casts at 100+ yards as the handler zig-zags... Or, one who dives into cover, searches, then pops out looking for the handler... I'm giving ++++ to his cooperation score. Or, following notes in the VZPO a pup that breaks off of a sight chase on a rabbit/hare and returns to the handler, again ++++ to his cooperation score.

If you give a whistle, then change direction... that IS NOT cooperation it is obedience and one reason I instruct handlers to pocket their whistles during the search portion of a test. I also used to zig-zag when walking with a novice handler, so that I could observe how the dog reacted to his changes in direction... we're evaluating the pups... not the people.

Note too that also stated in VZPO are suggestions that a dog that looks up at you when being leashed or back at you as you approach to flush a bird being pointed are additional cues that the dog is indicating cooperation.

There used to be some BS going around that a dog that broke point was "uncooperative"... fortunately, that was addressed by Uli A. and hopefully the culture has changed... hopefully...

While on the topic, I'd like to hijack the thread by providing some suggestions for the rabbit/hare track.

Learn/practice to use a slip lead. You can walk with your pup (30m) along the track to make sure that he is on it before releasing . Keep in mind, your pup can only be scored on the track after you release it. So, if you walk it 30m on a 30m track there's nothing left to score.

Before starting your track, make sure to politely ask the judge exactly where the starting place is, what the direction of (line) of the track is, and most important how long the track is. Ask politely for landmarks or objects to make this absolutely clear. Personally, it is lazy for a judge to point and say "... kinda' over there..." but, they do.

Your pup should get at least 2 scoreable tracks for a proper evaluation... if he didn't the Sr. judge, Test Director, and the system haven't done fairly by your pup. Don't complain, don't argue, just get on the phone and try to get into another test where there is the proper quantity of available game.

And, drifting back to the OP... I personally have a dog trained to recall, sit, and heel by VJP. It helps keep the test going by not chasing after a dog after evaluation, and it helps in the long walks pushing up rabbits.

Lastly, Jim Seeley coined the statement that you came to a test because you really liked your dog and regardless of the test results you should leave feeling the same...

Keep that in mind and that the test reflects only a one-day snapshot of your pup's life which could be his best or his worst... don't get caught up in the scores. In 10 years of active judging I evaluated several hundred pups/dogs. I passed some who met the minimum requirements (that I wouldn't have in my kennel) and I failed some on technicality (that I'd have gladly leashed and taken home). I will say that for one that failed I asked the handler to let me know when she ever bred the dog, because I was interested in a pup. Consequently, I have a very nice pup right now that I wouldn't trade for anything in the world.

Hope this clarifies ....

3ds
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby Georgia Boy » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:14 pm

As far as obedience goes at a VJP, the biggest concern for me is that the dog will heal on lead. While you are doing the rabbit or hare tracking portion you will be walking in the field with all the other handlers, judges and hopefully volunteers that are helping flush the rabbits. This could potentially take a few hours and a dog that is constantly pulling and misbehaving on lead can be a problem. Handlers get frustrated and that energy transfers over to the dog as well.
Home of the truly versatile hunting companion. http://www.vommountaincreek.com
Georgia Boy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:30 pm

Georgia Boy wrote:As far as obedience goes at a VJP, the biggest concern for me is that the dog will heal on lead. While you are doing the rabbit or hare tracking portion you will be walking in the field with all the other handlers, judges and hopefully volunteers that are helping flush the rabbits. This could potentially take a few hours and a dog that is constantly pulling and misbehaving on lead can be a problem. Handlers get frustrated and that energy transfers over to the dog as well.


Mike,

It's always been an enigma to me why a pinch collar isn't allowed at VJP precisely because of the rabbit/hare tracks. Really, if not evaluating OB why does a training collar matter so long as it isn't on a pup when it is off lead on search or a track.

On one occasion I made a "management decision" and waved this for a war vet' who had a prosthesis. I just thought it the right thing to do...
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby CohanseyDD » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:42 pm

Seems pretty common in Germany for them to just disable a choke collar by snapping the lead to both rings. The dog still knows it has the choke collar on though.
CohanseyDD
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:53 am

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:29 pm

If You can have a pinch collar, why can't I have a GPS collar on my dog and give the controller to the judges?? It's a slippery slope.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby CohanseyDD » Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:57 am

A pinch collar is not what I was referring to...it's a choke collar. Take a look at a bunch of pictures during testing over there. I watched dogs testing with them at the Hegewald this past year.
CohanseyDD
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:53 am

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:50 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:If You can have a pinch collar, why can't I have a GPS collar on my dog and give the controller to the judges?? It's a slippery slope.


WHOAAAA Nelly!!!! There is no slippery slope here.

Please don't get this conversation confused! No one said that you can have a "training collar" on your dog during a test...

Technically, a choke collar is a "training collar"... And, the Germans seem to get around and/or not get caught up in the details of this.

But, as I (and most VRs over here) interpret the PO states no "training" collar or "training device" is allowed while a dog is under evaluation at a test. This includes any collar that has been modified as Joe described. And, a choker is a "training" device. We've had some wise guys put rivets inside kennel collars, some walk around with staffs like Moses, etc. I've heard of some using their gun barrels to influence heeling (a safety issue if nothing else). The bottom line is that when (as a VR) you see something that is, appears to be, could potentially influence the OB of a dog during a test, you need to make a decision on whether to ask a handler to remove it.

And, as I explained the one exception that I made as a TD/OR was for a disabled vet', because with his prosthesis he was at a disadvantage holding his pup back during the rabbit tracks... I asked the gallery for a pinch collar, and gave it to the handler. I'm sure a lurker or two on this forum would absolutely love to have me expelled from the judging cadre for that infraction, but it was the right decision at the time.

3ds
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby randomnut » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:54 pm

I appreciate all the responses folks. I know it took plenty of time for some replies, and the detailed information was great. Thanks again
randomnut
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby birddog » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:05 am

I,m glad this post is going on at this time as I will try my hand at a vjp. this year at Wapelo,IA. after I do the derby. Having never run in one I had some questions about obedience and what the judges would be looking for, but it seams pretty clear.
birddog
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:20 am
Location: braidwood,il

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:40 pm

I will be testing in Wapello too, hopefully see you there!!
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: VJP Obedience

Postby birddog » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:42 am

yes looking forward to seeing you also. Trying to decide if I'm going to do the btr. with my other dog?
birddog
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:20 am
Location: braidwood,il


Return to German and European Testing Systems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests