Primary use of DD in Germany?

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Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby patton1 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:21 pm

Does anyone have links for how DD is utilized in hunting in Germany? Is it mostly boar, hunting or upland, duck hunting? I have heard that upland hunting is not as prevelent but the boar hunting is more common ( not sure if it is crediable). How do they boar with them (similar to NA hog/dog methods?). Do they hunt hare (if so is it off points or more similar to our beagle style hunts in NA?) Sorry for all the questions, but I find it intresting how various hunting cultures utilize these fine dogs. Thanks for replies....
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby TobyTx » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:52 am

Do some searching around in the forums and you'll find some good information. From what I gather, they as well as many of the other breeds are used big game such as boar and deer. I think this is done with driven hunts with a group of dogs. Upland is probably the least hunted game. I've also read that it depends on where in Germany you are. Different parts of the country having different terrain, game etc.
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby CohanseyDD » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:53 am

I don't have any links for you, but how the dogs are primarily utilized there depends greatly on the region where the dogs are used. Some areas have very little small game, but good populations of boar. Others have a lot of small game and no boar. Still others have prolific deer populations and small game numbers. If you're looking for a "line" of dogs, focus on where and how those dogs are utilized there and how they relate to how you'll use your dog here.
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby boarhunter » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:01 pm

CohanseyDD is perfectly right. You may see here statistics of "harvested" game for the hunting years 2012/13 and 2013/14 (in our country hunting year is from April 1 to March 31). Use the internet dictionary for the respective wording.

https://www.jagdverband.de/node/3304

You may see that the amount of killed boar roughly equals the sum of killed hare plus rabbits plus pheasants. You may also see the high amount of small predators such as fox and racoons (introduced from the US some decades ago), which reflects the high population of small predators in our country, which in turn is one (not the only one) of the reasons why upland birds, hare, rabbits, etc. are declining. Broadly, small game is not too bad in Northwestern Germany, the Lower Rhine Valley and parts of Bavaria, whereas hoofed big game and particularly boar is more abundant in large parts of East Germany. Farmers consider wild boars as a disaster.

Different game abundance and hunting behaviour do affect selection of certain DD lines. An example: I'm living in East Germany, and my current DD is retiring (13 years old). A new one is in sight. For our style of hunting (big game, small predators) I do need a loud dog. For that I will select an exemplar of a litter where both parents are preferentially spl, or one spl and the other one sil, at least. When DDs from our region are tested in VJP, HZP, or VGP, we strive for looking if a dog gives tongue, often by additional hare or fox tracks. Basic line: If any possible, no fr dogs. One may suspect that many fr dogs (most of the Armbruster Results list, also the top 4 dogs of this year's Hegewald) are in fact st => "stumm". This does not affect bird hunters, etc, they don't need loud dogs. However, hunters in our region believe that we should not lose this important trait => "loudness". There are other examples of that kind ...

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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby CohanseyDD » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:22 pm

Boarhunter,
Thank you for the explanation. I didn't have any data to support what I said, only word of mouth from those I have discussed it with in Germany. I also agree with your evaluation on dogs with frg., particularly over there where furred game is in sight of the dog much longer than in most cases here. I have two females that are loud on scent, but one of them is a little more vocal than what I would strive for here where I hunt. Most I've talked to believe sight loud is perfect and scent loud is living on the edge of being too vocal. Different traits for different purposes...even within the versatile breed.
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:51 pm

boarhunter wrote:CohanseyDD is perfectly right. You may see here statistics of "harvested" game for the hunting years 2012/13 and 2013/14 (in our country hunting year is from April 1 to March 31). Use the internet dictionary for the respective wording.

https://www.jagdverband.de/node/3304

You may see that the amount of killed boar roughly equals the sum of killed hare plus rabbits plus pheasants. You may also see the high amount of small predators such as fox and racoons (introduced from the US some decades ago), which reflects the high population of small predators in our country, which in turn is one (not the only one) of the reasons why upland birds, hare, rabbits, etc. are declining. Broadly, small game is not too bad in Northwestern Germany, the Lower Rhine Valley and parts of Bavaria, whereas hoofed big game and particularly boar is more abundant in large parts of East Germany. Farmers consider wild boars as a disaster.

Different game abundance and hunting behaviour do affect selection of certain DD lines. An example: I'm living in East Germany, and my current DD is retiring (13 years old). A new one is in sight. For our style of hunting (big game, small predators) I do need a loud dog. For that I will select an exemplar of a litter where both parents are preferentially spl, or one spl and the other one sil, at least. When DDs from our region are tested in VJP, HZP, or VGP, we strive for looking if a dog gives tongue, often by additional hare or fox tracks. Basic line: If any possible, no fr dogs. One may suspect that many fr dogs (most of the Armbruster Results list, also the top 4 dogs of this year's Hegewald) are in fact st => "stumm". This does not affect bird hunters, etc, they don't need loud dogs. However, hunters in our region believe that we should not lose this important trait => "loudness". There are other examples of that kind ...

Regards,
Boarhunter


boarhunter,

One of the things that the US doesn't have to offer so much as in Europe is hare and in some cases just rabbits. Most pups at tests as a result don't get enough exposure to rabbits and hare to develop their loudness. And, in most cases at a test if a pup isn't spl it gets "questionable" as the note.

Several years ago we had a test in the east that had so many rabbits that we had the convenience of being able to push up extra rabbit tracks to give all pups the opportunity for manner of hunt and "remarkably" we had spl and sl notes for all 5 tested on both test days, 10 out of 10 pups. So, based on that small sample I'm less inclined that our dogs are silent... I believe it's more an issue of exposure and the opportunity to show what they are while under evaluation.

Best regards,

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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby boarhunter » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:28 am

3drahthaars wrote:boarhunter,

One of the things that the US doesn't have to offer so much as in Europe is hare and in some cases just rabbits. Most pups at tests as a result don't get enough exposure to rabbits and hare to develop their loudness. And, in most cases at a test if a pup isn't spl it gets "questionable" as the note.

Several years ago we had a test in the east that had so many rabbits that we had the convenience of being able to push up extra rabbit tracks to give all pups the opportunity for manner of hunt and "remarkably" we had spl and sl notes for all 5 tested on both test days, 10 out of 10 pups. So, based on that small sample I'm less inclined that our dogs are silent... I believe it's more an issue of exposure and the opportunity to show what they are while under evaluation.

Best regards,

3ds


Thank you very much for the explanation. I fully agree that it may take some time for pups/young dogs to develop their inherent loudness. Over the decades, I've found that this is best seen/developed using fresh fox tracks for scent loudness (admittedly very rarely available at test sites/on test days). Where I'm hunting there are a lot of fox burrows, and many of them are settled. It is therefore quite easy to find fox populations and setting a dog on fox tracks.
BTW, loudness is considered even more important for our friends from the Deutsch-Langhaar camp. Loudness (scent or sight loud) of both parents is a prerequisite for breeding DLs. I'm eternally engaged to DDs already. If were not them it would be DLs.

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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby blue04 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:35 am

boarhunter wrote:loudness is considered even more important for our friends from the Deutsch-Langhaar camp. Loudness (scent or sight loud) of both parents is a prerequisite for breeding DLs.


Since you mentioned DLs, I'm wondering... Do the folks in Germany (or other neighboring countries like Czech Rep.) have similar desires/requirements for loudness in PPs? Are PPs and DLs used in a similar (identical?) manner of hunting as DDs in Germany?
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby CohanseyDD » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:49 am

Bob,
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see that situation present itself again at those test sites. Rabbit numbers are so low now that even finding viable testing venues is a problem.
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby huntinmo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:17 am

Very good discussion of loudness. Manner of hunting is an important part of the tests, but as pointed out, at least in the US it is often dependent on the grounds available and the previous exposure of young dogs. Apparently there were not many opportunities during the free search at the Armbruster this year, but at the Armbruster in 2004 in Utah 21 of the 23 dogs tested were marked sil or spl or both. Also, it should be remembered that at other times, such as hunting or maybe even training days, when two judges are present then formblatt 22 can be used. For spl it needs to be timely submitted to JGHV through your club and will appear in the stammbach, but for sil the completed form stays with the dog's ahnentafel so even if not recored in the official records some dogs have been evaluated and you may have to ask the owner if you have not observed the dog yourself. All DD's have the potential to demonstrate loudness with exposure and opportunity.
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:09 pm

boarhunter wrote:
3drahthaars wrote:boarhunter,

One of the things that the US doesn't have to offer so much as in Europe is hare and in some cases just rabbits. Most pups at tests as a result don't get enough exposure to rabbits and hare to develop their loudness. And, in most cases at a test if a pup isn't spl it gets "questionable" as the note.

Several years ago we had a test in the east that had so many rabbits that we had the convenience of being able to push up extra rabbit tracks to give all pups the opportunity for manner of hunt and "remarkably" we had spl and sl notes for all 5 tested on both test days, 10 out of 10 pups. So, based on that small sample I'm less inclined that our dogs are silent... I believe it's more an issue of exposure and the opportunity to show what they are while under evaluation.

Best regards,

3ds


Thank you very much for the explanation. I fully agree that it may take some time for pups/young dogs to develop their inherent loudness. Over the decades, I've found that this is best seen/developed using fresh fox tracks for scent loudness (admittedly very rarely available at test sites/on test days). Where I'm hunting there are a lot of fox burrows, and many of them are settled. It is therefore quite easy to find fox populations and setting a dog on fox tracks.
BTW, loudness is considered even more important for our friends from the Deutsch-Langhaar camp. Loudness (scent or sight loud) of both parents is a prerequisite for breeding DLs. I'm eternally engaged to DDs already. If were not them it would be DLs.

Best regards,
Boarhunter


Boarhunter,

At one time the DD was the be all / end all, mainly because of the incredible drive of the charter members of VDD-GNA to build the breed and establish the testing program over here. However, a small sample of us have made efforts to help the other JGHV breeds get a foothold by helping organize tests and judging their dogs.

And, surprise surprise we've seen that some of these other breeds are really nice too. As a result, there are some converts already looking at DLs and KMs for sure, and I've personally been researching PPs for about 10 years, now with another DD guy in my club also interested.

Realistically, in the end of the day when you've fed the pup, cleaned/packed your gamebirds, oiled your shotgun and enjoying a beer and/or Kirsch by the fireplace who gives a $#it which breed you hunt, eh?

You take care,

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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby boarhunter » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:17 pm

Do the folks in Germany (or other neighboring countries like Czech Rep.) have similar desires/requirements for loudness in PPs?

I must admit that I don't know. PP numbers are so low in Germany (94 registered whelps; 579 DLs; 3073 DDs; in 2014) so that I do know only two living exemplars. Here the statistics of registered whelps (i.e. with Ahnentafel) in Germany
http://www.vdh.de/ueber-den-vdh/welpenstatistik/
My intution would say: yes, similar desires.
Are PPs and DLs used in a similar (identical?) manner of hunting as DDs in Germany?

Also, yes. My general impression is that in my German country the ordinary hunter (like me) takes his new versatile dog just from the renowned neighborhood breeder. Is this accidentially a DL breeder he'll be taking one of that, maybe because father and grandfather, etc, already did so. Of course, this does not hold for true aficionados who look at the whole stock of a particular breed, and who will select their pup Germany-wide. Underlying reason (my opinion): If we interpret hunting success (on whichever game) as the product of a good teamwork between dog and hunter, the dog is (on average !) the better performing part, isn't it ? The superdog is not necessary for the average hunter, a normal one would just do given the high standard we nowadays have.

Realistically, in the end of the day when you've fed the pup, cleaned/packed your gamebirds, oiled your shotgun and enjoying a beer and/or Kirsch by the fireplace who gives a $#it which breed you hunt, eh

Exactly, thats it !

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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby woodboro » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:23 am

A friend was stationed there for 7 years and was good friends with a game keeper.
It allowed him to hunt multiple species.
He has a very nice collection of grade deer racks.... which were taken on a very tall look-out deer stand.
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A dog would be at the base, for retrieves and dispatching game.
If I recall he did some duck hunting , but upland birds were only for elite.
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby Densa44 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:49 am

I have a question too. If it is O.K. in this post.

I personally have zero interest in any fur bearing animal, I bought the dog to get some new genetics. When she is hunting birds and cuts a rabbit track she goes off at light speed barking after the rabbit. She is still a pup and I get she has no idea what I'm hunting, how do you recall her when she is hot on a track? Use the collar?

She has already run down and caught a fawn, which where I live is verbotten! I'd like that to stop too.

She is very different to train than my North American PPs but a nice dog none the less. I know there may not be much help for me but any that you provide will be appreciated.
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Re: Primary use of DD in Germany?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:57 pm

Densa44 wrote:I have a question too. If it is O.K. in this post.

I personally have zero interest in any fur bearing animal, I bought the dog to get some new genetics. When she is hunting birds and cuts a rabbit track she goes off at light speed barking after the rabbit. She is still a pup and I get she has no idea what I'm hunting, how do you recall her when she is hot on a track? Use the collar?



Just recall her. A good recall means she will come back regardless of what is going on. I don't care if a family of rabbits is dancing a jig, my dog better come when I call. Since we DO follow fur, I will recall, then use ecollar if she doesn't immediately respond. Then she is getting e-stim for not listening, not for chasing fur. My dog will recall off a rabbit sight chase.
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