Hand signals and HZP

DKV and VDD, etc

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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:09 am

It was an exhausting search. Not only a 100 yd swim to the blind (far shore seemed closer to our training than center of pond in lily pad patch) but she didn't know how to get through the lily pads and I kept sending her back into them until she figured it out. Then in her lily pad struggles she got on the upwind side and did a search similar to that of the VGP dogs who were also there that day. At one point near the end I thought I was going to have to jump in and help her out of the lily pads. She's not a robot, she gets a pass this time around. We will work on short retrieve return to hand from water later this week.

If you have any suggestions on preventing an exhausted dog from dropping the duck Im open to suggestions.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:42 am

My suggestion is merely that FF is not complete and should be a priority. If she got to you with the duck...she was not too tired to deliver it. Not bashing your handling of the dog, nor the dog's performance...merely pointing out common behavior I've personally witnessed. Almost 100% of the time at a test, if the dog does not complete the deliver (Manner of Retrieve) properly on one of the early ones...it's MOR worsen with each progressing retrieve. Stress of the test affects both dog and handler. That's why it is imperative to strive for perfect deliveries now so if there are problems at the test there is more margin for error.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Chadwick » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:47 am

Cohansey, I test in JGHV, so I am familiar with the rules and consequences.

Your reply made it seem like she should have done something about the hold. Her main issue was the resistance and the dog stopping short. So my point was, in that context, focusing on the primary issue can be more beneficial than trying to deal with a secondary item that may show up. Focus on the secondary item (dropping the duck) in a separate training session so as not to detract from achieving the primary objective. All too often I see people trying to achieve an objective in training accomplish the objective, and then detract or even undo the success the dog just had by getting bent out of shape over something else that happened that had nothing to do with what they were trying to accomplish.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Chadwick » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:49 am

vom Dufenshmirtz wrote: If the dog comes with a retrieve (in training) and the handler continuously praises the dog, while it's performing correctly, the dog knows it's doing well.


Make sure you are not creating a "keep going signal" as that can back fire on you sometimes.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Chadwick » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:51 am

CohanseyDD wrote: Almost 100% of the time at a test, if the dog does not complete the deliver (Manner of Retrieve) properly on one of the early ones...it's MOR worsen with each progressing retrieve. Stress of the test affects both dog and handler. That's why it is imperative to strive for perfect deliveries now so if there are problems at the test there is more margin for error.


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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:56 am

Chadwick,
If the FF was believed to have been completed, I absolutely would have corrected the dog for dropping the game in training. The level of correcting would have to correspond to the individual dog's temperament and what type of correction has previously given the best results. To ignore the inappropriate behavior by the dog when it happens reinforces incorrect behavior in the future. After that training episode, the dog and I would have gone back through FF refresher because I was misled by the dog into thinking we both had completed it.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:15 am

I did make her pick the duck back up and hold it before I praised her. She did not get the same level of praise as she got for her prior retrieves and she was immediately put up.

What specific refresher drill do you recommend?? FF took us 14 weeks and was overseen by my pups breeder every step of the way.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Steven » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:26 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:I did make her pick the duck back up and hold it before I praised her. She did not get the same level of praise as she got for her prior retrieves and she was immediately put up.

What specific refresher drill do you recommend?? FF took us 14 weeks and was overseen by my pups breeder every step of the way.


After a single infraction, if I felt like I addressed it promptly and the dog understood, I wouldn't worry too much about. If it repeats itself in subsequent training, then what I have done is go back to the mini-pile phase where, in close quarters, I can drill on a proper delivery.

Misskiwi67 wrote:If you have any suggestions on preventing an exhausted dog from dropping the duck Im open to suggestions.

What you have to be careful of is "making excuses". What you described in the post I pulled this from was valid to understanding why it occurred and guiding your approach to fixing it, but there's still something there that needed fixed. Maybe you fixed it with your response, but maybe not. That's why we train, train, and train some more. I like to train until the dog is exhausted as it gets close to test time because then I can proof all the training up to that point. You only get one shot at it on your HZP test day . . . . actually you one shot, 5 times, and 4/5 right is failure.
"A bird dog already wants to find and point birds. It's my job to take nothing away from that and add those little things that WE want them to do. . ." - Maurice Lindley
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:59 pm

What score would my dog get if the game was dropped on my feet (and I mean soggy duck water shoes ON my feet) after every retrieve?
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:06 pm

Dropping dead game at your feet will reduce each MOR by at least a point, possibly a whole predicate depending on the judging team. Dropping a live duck will result in failure-"0" for the whole test. The live duck does not have to escape for a failure, it only has to be "possible" for the duck to escape due to being dropped. Consider the different elements of the delivery-Sit with one "not loud" command, present the game to hand, proper grip on the game, etc. A lack of any one of these can reduce score by a single point. With the drop at your feet example, the dog did not sit and definitely did not deliver to hand.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:16 pm

She did sit. She sat for all 4 retrieves I asked on her on training day. She only dropped the final duck. The live duck will not likely come back alive, she hunted hard last year and learned dead ducks are easier to carry. Does that one retrieve still have to be held, or is it only if the duck is live???

I could have snatched the duck from her if Id been concerned, but I was not expecting a drop.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:33 pm

If the duck is dead there is no possibility of escape. In your test...if you see that the dog is going to drop the game...just take it w/o any further commands and play it safe. If you give a command and she doesn't obey or deliver properly after that...you've lost another point with the command. The key is reading your dog. Most dogs do something improperly through training. That's why we train so hard...to test to failure so we know where the problems might be.

Sitting and dropping with a dead duck would likely only be a single point deduction, but again, it could be more. If it's only a single problem in the test it won't affect your score much because all 5 get averaged. Train for perfection and simply take what test day gives you.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:43 pm

Thanks. I'm just wanting to clarify priorities. She hates retrieving, so what I don't want to do is over-do and end up with a dog that flips me the bird on test day. Our HZP is in October. I have lots of time to fix things, but also time to make her bored. I appreciate everyone's advice on all the multiple options for failure I need to avoid and continue to train for.
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Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:58 am

Chadwick wrote:
vom Dufenshmirtz wrote: If the dog comes with a retrieve (in training) and the handler continuously praises the dog, while it's performing correctly, the dog knows it's doing well.


Make sure you are not creating a "keep going signal" as that can back fire on you sometimes.


Thanks for poiting this out, once the dog understands the complete sequence, the praise can (should) be diminished and eliminated.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:09 pm

I have been praising when she finds and picks up the game on blinds, and at first visual on the return for drags. Then again only after she sits and holds.

Thanks again for everyone's help!
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Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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