Hand signals and HZP

DKV and VDD, etc

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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:15 pm

I haven't seen you work with the dog but be careful of praising before completion. Some dogs equate early praise with a release. It depends on the dog and the training sequence. By August, you want to be to the point where praise is given upon completion.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:47 pm

Got it. Glad I clarified.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:52 pm

DrahtsundBraats wrote:I haven't seen you work with the dog but be careful of praising before completion. Some dogs equate early praise with a release. It depends on the dog and the training sequence. By August, you want to be to the point where praise is given upon completion.


Well, when I train, there's a cue for 'you're doing fine, keep going' and there's another one for 'you're done'.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Wolfgang » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:39 am

CohanseyDD wrote:If the duck is dead there is no possibility of escape. In your test...if you see that the dog is going to drop the game...just take it w/o any further commands and play it safe. If you give a command and she doesn't obey or deliver properly after that...you've lost another point with the command. The key is reading your dog. Most dogs do something improperly through training. That's why we train so hard...to test to failure so we know where the problems might be.

Sitting and dropping with a dead duck would likely only be a single point deduction, but again, it could be more. If it's only a single problem in the test it won't affect your score much because all 5 get averaged. Train for perfection and simply take what test day gives you.



VZPO Bringen von Ente (11) b
legt der Hund die gebrachte Ente zunächst ab...... which doesn't make a difference between drop or lay down! ,so kann er für diese Bringarbeit höchstens mit "gut" 7 punkte bewertet werden.
As soon as the duck touches the ground after a retrieve you automatically drop one predicate which means 3 points.
Only difference as you stated correctly if a life duck could have escaped its a complete fail.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:43 am

Can I get a critique of this blind retrieve. This is our own pond, but all previous blinds have been at a narrower point on the pond. I did not know to separate the commands between search and retrieve, so she doesn't know the difference. Is this acceptable and is there time to change?

http://youtu.be/JsJEccUOvZs
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Wolfgang » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:38 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:Can I get a critique of this blind retrieve. This is our own pond, but all previous blinds have been at a narrower point on the pond. I did not know to separate the commands between search and retrieve, so she doesn't know the difference. Is this acceptable and is there time to change?

http://youtu.be/JsJEccUOvZs


perfect.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:53 pm

So it's ok that she bypassed the duck and did a lap? I thought it was fine until I read that helping your dog to the fall was recommended for the blind retrieve.

Thanks!!
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Duckdon » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:18 pm

I did not like the open water lap but she did get back to the duck. Keep in mind the wind direction and use it to your advantage. Looks like you have the straight line down but I would proof it on a few different ponds and on the first run on any given pond. Looks good.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Deuce » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:44 pm

you can help, but help will result in a ding. Help in the form of signal or rock. If you're going to use the rock make sure the dog is paying attention to you throwing or is looking where the rock will land. If not you just wasted it.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:19 pm

Hand or verbal assistance that are not deemed to be excessive will not result in any lowering of your score on the blind. Neither will what your dog did in the video. I don't know what the wind was doing or if there even was any, but I've witnessed several very good dogs pass within a few feet upwind of a thrown duck and not scent it on the first pass. IMO...the key to the blind is the fact you KNOW where the duck is...the dog DOES NOT. You are permitted to "help and assist" the dog to get to the downed bird as quickly as possible so the hunt/test can continue. If your dog was trained to take hand or verbal cues...when it started the empty pond search after being close to the duck initially...I would have stopped it before it got a chance to get to the other end of the pond and possibly get distracted by something else. Most judges are not going to want to see a blind take 15 minutes.

If you need to get the dog to the duck and it isn't going well...have a couple good size rocks (golf ball size or larger) to throw...but make sure you're able to throw accurately to the area where the duck is. If you can't...ask for the gun that will be there and fire a shot directly at the duck. Like Deuce stated...make sure the dog is looking before you do either. Both will result in a predicate drop, but you'll move on and still have a solid score working. A rock or shot the dog does not see will not result in a predicate reduction.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby Wolfgang » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:45 am

CohanseyDD wrote:Hand or verbal assistance that are not deemed to be excessive will not result in any lowering of your score on the blind. Neither will what your dog did in the video. I don't know what the wind was doing or if there even was any, but I've witnessed several very good dogs pass within a few feet upwind of a thrown duck and not scent it on the first pass. IMO...the key to the blind is the fact you KNOW where the duck is...the dog DOES NOT. You are permitted to "help and assist" the dog to get to the downed bird as quickly as possible so the hunt/test can continue. If your dog was trained to take hand or verbal cues...when it started the empty pond search after being close to the duck initially...I would have stopped it before it got a chance to get to the other end of the pond and possibly get distracted by something else. Most judges are not going to want to see a blind take 15 minutes.

If you need to get the dog to the duck and it isn't going well...have a couple good size rocks (golf ball size or larger) to throw...but make sure you're able to throw accurately to the area where the duck is. If you can't...ask for the gun that will be there and fire a shot directly at the duck. Like Deuce stated...make sure the dog is looking before you do either. Both will result in a predicate drop, but you'll move on and still have a solid score working. A rock or shot the dog does not see will not result in a predicate reduction.


That's interesting :wink: Never heard about that :oops: Would you mind telling us were the source of information is to be found that justifies such a decission and how does that adopt to VZPO §14 (29 d) ?
Der Führer darf seinen Hund unterstützen und lenken,jedoch mindern dauernde Einwirkung oder Schuß bzw Steinwurf das Prädikat! Anybody else sharing this opinion ? Hope it is not common practise to jugde that way anywere in the world in JGHV tests.
I mean you can discuss among the VR's what a PERMANENT assistance is :? :o two or three handsignals or ten or twenty or one or two additional comands or permanent babbeling and hysterical hand and arm waving?
But how can you discuss the fact,that throwing a rock or firing a gunshot drops the predicate? And maybe you won't mind a dumb question in addition... how can you fire a gunshot UNSEEN????? If that would matter,cause its somewhere on paper in VZPO were I didn't find it? Even if the dog would be facing the opposite direction he'll hear the sound and see the splash or don't you think so? Same with rocks you might be able to throw it unseen,but you'd have to stuff his ears with wax to avoid hearing the splash.
When I read that sentence I must admitt I was abit confused cause I judge tests for differntJGHV breedclubs were I have to deal with 4 different PO's which all have their similarities but can change quite a bit in detail so I took VZPO out and checked and reread but couldn't find anything that matches with your statement! OK next I checked my calender to make sure it is not April first and you are trying to make fun of us? Since this is not the case I can only think its somewhere in your question and answer list of faq's at a judge seminar. :shock: :oops: :?:
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby CohanseyDD » Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:20 am

Wolfgang,

I respect your years of judging and your overall dog experience, so don't take this the wrong way...but have you ever read through the Questions on Test Practices? EVERYTHING I stated comes directly from them. I did not write them...I did not have any input in writing them...I was merely instructed that these are supplemental instructions which aid in administering the VZPO. These QTP's are not only for "faq's at a judge seminar"...they are updated periodically to deal with protests that are decided by the JGHV board and revisions to the VZPO and how those revisions affect judging and handling.

Regarding the amount of hand or verbal signals...every judging team I've been around handles that at their discretion. When they think it's too much...they tell the handler to cease his assistance. If the handler persists...points are reduced.

Regarding the dog seeing vs. hearing a splash or a gunshot...certainly the dog might hear the splash, but does it direct him to the area of the duck? Not necessarily. To expound on this...when a live duck search is being conducted and a dog does not catch the duck...a duck must be thrown in sight of the dog. Under your premise...why wouldn't the judges just throw one out there? Certainly the dog could possibly "hear the splash". Same for the gunshot. On the gunfire sensitivity...why is the judges are now instructed to fire the shot close to the proximity of the fallen duck? It's because if you fire the shot 40 yards beyond or to the side of the duck...some dogs will go to the area of the shot. In this case...it is the shot striking the water that could be what directs the dog to a certain area.
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Re: Hand signals and HZP

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:06 pm

Where does the principle of a working hunting dog come into all of this? Shouldn't judges also be thinking about the dog's performance and whether the dog is performing in the context
of an actual hunting situation? I realize that we have "must" and "should" differentiations....
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