HZP questions

DKV and VDD, etc

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:42 pm

CohanseyDD wrote:Wolfgang,
You're misreading the QTP's or my post. If the dog dropped the duck as you described...it would fail. If you can stand on the bank and reach out and retrieve it...the dog passes.


Ok I didn't wan't to stress this topic any further,but also don't want to owe you a response if you take the time to explain to me.
In the question list I got there wasn't anything in detail about water work,it was only the question if their is any difference between land and water concerning the distance and the answer was NO the next question was any difference between HZP and VGP and the answer again was NO.
So thanks again for your explanation,is this explanation of yours also on the list of questions asked during jugdge seminar 2013? if so which number is it? I mean if the only response from those answers is NO there is no difference between land and water,I would assume the dog can drop the duck 10 m of the bank!????Or stand there if its not to deep with the duck in his mouth and the handler is wading to him to retrieve :oops: I mean both options are ridicoulus!If the case is like you described (if I got you right this time) and the dog is standing in the water with the duck in his mouth and the handler has to bend over and reach to it,its a clear fail as well! Fehlverhalten des Hundes (misbehaviour of dog) cause he refuses to deliver the game!
BTW I was judging a water test this afternoon and asked 3 differnt VR's about the 10m rule ON LAND one after the other so there has been no comunication between them...
Answer like a pistol shot crisp and clear FAIL!!!!!! When I told'em the reason for my question everyone had a bright grin on his face :lol:
I personnally do not think it ain't funny,its way to serious for me!!!!!
Again,thanks for your time and input and I will give it a rest until judge seminar in aug.and will put up the whole thing for discussion and clarification!
Can't wait to get a response from those who worked on the new VZPO and the laywer who is always there to get things straight if there are questionable or misleading terms ,which is defenately not the case here :wink:
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:51 pm

vom Dufenshmirtz wrote:Thanks all. I think between this thread and the older ones here, I got my answers.
BTW, Q&A doc clearly differentiates between delivery on land and from water and highlights the 'hunting situation' application.

However, again, it was a shocker to me to discover 10 m drop may represent a pass, I assumed delivery to hand is a MUST.
Good thing I asked. Now I can make some decisions at the test if it doesn't go perfectly.


Don't forgt your footrule when you go to the test and mark clearly the spot were the drag started and keep in mind one yard doesn't equal one m so 10 m is more than 10 yards so you get a little extra distance! :P :lol:
If he drops at 11 m you can remain at ten,and bend over to get your prey and will pass :lol:
If that would happen to a US handler at the Hegewald and the poor fella would start a discussion with the judges,I would really like to be there and hear all the responses :lol:
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: HZP questions

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:26 am

@D&B I agree the spirit and the idea is forwarded in this translation to a certain degree,but question to every US Citicisan who ever dealed with it....how often did you read and reread it before you "thought" you fiquered out what someone tried to express? :lol:
It reminds me of Werner Lamp a german guy who made the weather forecast for AFN in the 70's in Frankfurt


There is a certain practical nature to judging. I doubt a dog that drops game that the handler must go and pick up will gt more than a "3". This lack of obedience will most likely show up in other categories such as search, blind retrieve, and certainly be evident in cooperation. So at the end of the day a dog gets a 150 and that's the last we see of the dog. We see these dogs every year...even at the Hegewald.

But let's look at the other side of the equation. If we are a Breeders Organization, what do we gain by sending dogs home that score 12 11 11 11 11 11 11 ...and then fail to retrieve properly because of poor training. Then we are breeding the best "trainers"...not necessarily the best dogs.

We failed 2 dogs at a VJP this spring (actually we allowed one dog to withdraw). Both dogs suffered from inadequate ownership...there was nothing wrong with the dogs. I would have been happy to own either of them. My Olaf in the hands of such a handler would have failed too.
DrahtsundBraats
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:41 am

Re: HZP questions

Postby CohanseyDD » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:56 am

Wolfgang,
It seems you think GNA has written these standards to suit our needs. However, these are the standards set in place by members from across the ocean. I believe you may be looking only at one set of QTP's? There are in fact several sets of them comprising hundreds of pages. If the VZPO/VGPO were so crystal clear to judges and handlers alike...how is it possible there have been so many questions on the interpretation of these rules?
CohanseyDD
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:53 am

Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:14 am

CohanseyDD wrote:Wolfgang,
It seems you think GNA has written these standards to suit our needs. However, these are the standards set in place by members from across the ocean. I believe you may be looking only at one set of QTP's? There are in fact several sets of them comprising hundreds of pages. If the VZPO/VGPO were so crystal clear to judges and handlers alike...how is it possible there have been so many questions on the interpretation of these rules?


Holy crap NO!!!!! i do not think GNA has written these standards to suit his own needs :shock: Which comment of mine did you make to believe this?
I really don't want to discuss this issue any further on a public board but will gain for clarification once I get the chance to meet people who should know it better!
What I have said here is my personal opinion not more or less and I am not germany,the JGHV or VDD or whatever and don't speak for any of those.
For me as VR and handler/trainer this 10 m rule is defenately against the PO and nobody here in my area whom I know would ever judge this way! But I'm not the only person from outside the US who may read this and I don't want to run into a situation were someone who has also read this and failed his test as a handler because of the 10m rule which we do not accept would lead to unnecessary discussions and an Einspruch.
So please give it a rest and continue judging in the US,like you did since you got this explanation and I will defenately have info before HZP tests start here how to do it correct on this side!
And I can promise you if this rule would be to the DISADVANTAGE of the handlers we would have had a clarification already cause there would be many who don't just swallow it!
Yes you are right ;I have seen only one excample of these questions and it has about 20 or so and I'm really not interested or curious to see the rest!
About your other question,I never said the PO is cristal clear to handlers (I didn't mention handlers at all) but referred to § 15 VZPO which is crystal clear for ME and should be for EVERY other VR who can read as well cause I'm repeating myself "beim Führer" means in my personal translation nothing else but close to the handler and defenately not 10 m away!!!!!!!!
After aug 29 I will inform you how other authorities (and not the little redneck VR Wolfgang Lorenz) see it and how we will be advised to judge it!
I have already shortened my activity to judge JGHV events and if we really would be forced to stretch the PO to the 10m rule,I will quit judging HZP or VGP and go hunting or fishing these days .
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:43 am

One more question to all the NA VR's which I will bring up for clarification,but must be 100% sure I understood that right!
In the list of seminar questions from june 2013 question 16:is there a difference in allowed distance from HZP to VGP? Answer :NO
Do I get that right,that you let a VGP dog pass when he drops retrieved game in approxiametely 10 m distance?
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: HZP questions

Postby 3drahthaars » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:26 pm

DrahtsundBraats wrote:
@D&B I agree the spirit and the idea is forwarded in this translation to a certain degree,but question to every US Citicisan who ever dealed with it....how often did you read and reread it before you "thought" you fiquered out what someone tried to express? :lol:
It reminds me of Werner Lamp a german guy who made the weather forecast for AFN in the 70's in Frankfurt


There is a certain practical nature to judging. I doubt a dog that drops game that the handler must go and pick up will gt more than a "3". This lack of obedience will most likely show up in other categories such as search possibly if dog disobeys a recall or direction command , blind retrieve yes, and certainly be evident in cooperation no, two different subjects completely. So at the end of the day a dog gets a 150 and that's the last we see of the dog. We see these dogs every year...even at the Hegewald.

But let's look at the other side of the equation. If we are a Breeders Organization, what do we gain by sending dogs home that score 12 11 11 11 11 11 11 ...and then fail to retrieve properly because of poor training. Very good point of how a Draconian evaluation can over time adversely affect the gene pool. You don't test quality into anything... in the real world you design, manufacture, or in this case breed quality in. Then we are breeding the best "trainers"...not necessarily the best dogs. Unfortunately, only a few breeders breed dogs with scores much lower than the 70, 180s, etc. and then it's usually because they've nothing else to breed, not because their dog is truly EXCEPTIONAL in a particular subject.


At any rate, the PO is the guidelines (i.e. statute law), the Questions on Test Practices (case law). The PO I believe is constantly evolving, mostly a result of the times. The original PO was written and most probably practiced by men who really understood hunting and especially hunting over dogs. Now, we have judges who have probably one dog's worth of experience and the PO and QoTP reflect the dumbing down of what most probably was just common sense to the original versatile dog men.

We also saw a slide in interpretation followed by a re-definition of the retrieving subjects and the Draconian interpretation. The latest QoTP reflects the "correction".

I think that those who actually hunt enough have a little more common sense in what it takes to breed a dog, and this tempers the evaluation.

It's really a beautiful thing to see a crisp "10", small infractions get the "9", and the rest of the 10 point system accommodates us adequately down to the dog that wasn't properly trained or in some cases wasn't trainable for consistency. In the case of the former... maybe if some breeders tapered off production so that they could better place pups in more experienced hands some of these things wouldn't happen. But, that's another topic entirely isn't it?

Getting to the OP, if your pup goes out, retrieves, returns, sits (with or without a command), delivers (with a soft command)... you get the "10". Practice for that and you're golden. The rest is the luck of the test.

Good luck,

3ds
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: HZP questions

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:16 am

cooperation no, two different subjects completely.


Bob,
Appreciate your constant corrections....however, the dog that lacks obedience often shows a lack of cooperation. They are two different subjects, but I appreciate the lesson :wink:

We forget that a club needs people. Here in North America, the majority of owners are inexperienced. Failing young members when a "3" would send the message loud and clear has to be carefully considered. If its a "must", we have no choice. If the judgment is a "should", then we must carefully weigh if we "should" fail a dog.
DrahtsundBraats
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:41 am

Re: HZP questions

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:24 pm

Wolfgang, look what I found. In 2010 you wrote

The distance to the handler should not exceed 10 yards to be acceptable (O_tone Karl Walsch editor of the Jagdgebrauchshund magazine)


viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11782&hilit=hzp#p141214
vom Dufenshmirtz
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:27 pm

Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:44 am

vom Dufenshmirtz wrote:Wolfgang, look what I found. In 2010 you wrote

The distance to the handler should not exceed 10 yards to be acceptable (O_tone Karl Walsch editor of the Jagdgebrauchshund magazine)


viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11782&hilit=hzp#p141214


Yes this has been part of a discussion at a seminar and was discussed wholeheartly and the majority disagreed. The tenor was if this should be part of the VZPO rules it should be printed clearly there,cause it did'nt appear in VZPO before 2011
Since the majority did'nt agree with this interpretation it was demanded to print this additional sentence in the "new" edition of the novelle VZPO in 2011 if there would be a mority vote for it in the assembly working on the making of the uptodate version of VZPO.
But since it still isn't printed in the newest edition (2011) we continued to judge without paying attention to the interpretation of (some) VR's.
I always base my decissions if something is/maybe questionable strictly on the wording of VZPO which is, like federal law is the institution above statelaw,the institution above the opinion(s) of one/some VR's even if they are representatives of Stammbuchkommission or other partys of JGHV.
The next renewal is close ahead and I will bring it up for discussion if if a change is wanted/needed it should be in print by than to whipe out any concerns or doubts and leads to clear interpretation and unigue judging all over the world in every associated club of JGHV.
This is the major reason to have always 3 judges to judge any events,if there is no unanimous decission and needs to be discussed,the majority will succeed (as long as the decisssion is not clearly against VZPO.)
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: HZP questions

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:19 pm

DrahtsundBraats wrote:
cooperation no, two different subjects completely.


Bob,
Appreciate your constant corrections....however, the dog that lacks obedience often shows a lack of cooperation. They are two different subjects, but I appreciate the lesson :wink:

We forget that a club needs people. Here in North America, the majority of owners are inexperienced. Failing young members when a "3" would send the message loud and clear has to be carefully considered. If its a "must", we have no choice. If the judgment is a "should", then we must carefully weigh if we "should" fail a dog.


Jon, I was not trying to be an ass... it's just that double jeopardy constantly enters into judging unless one makes the conscious effort to separate the subjects. And, just as importantly we must make the effort to refrain from generalities (like a disobedient dog is likely to be an un-cooperative dog), because they prevent us from thinking through each situation and subject clearly.

Obedience is the compliance with a command...

Cooperation distilled down is a dog that isn't a self-hunter... a dog can be cooperative and still have a mind of its own when you give it a command, when it would rather drop at your feet (or 30 feet away, on in the pond) than wait for the release command, or not sit, etc..

That aside, we don't evaluate handlers... we evaluate dogs. It is our responsibility to do that well. We shouldn't base a "pass/fail" upon the youth or the inexperience of a handler... we MUST base a pass/fail upon an accurate evaluation in accordance with the PO. If a dog clearly failed... it should fail.

Furthermore, if a handler gives up because of failure... what does that say about his character? We have chosen a breed that doesn't quit. We recognize that it's not a lab, or a golden, or a poodle... it's a Drahthaar. They're not for everyone. And, the guy that bucks up after failing an HZP and pulls off a VGP is the kind of guy we need in this club, someone who has some substance, i.e. not a quitter ...

So, maybe instead of learning how to spell "Ahnentafel", some breeders should back off from churning out 3,4,5 litters a year to a reasonable number where they can place pups with able/experienced handlers and real hunters (the kind a DD deserves), instead of dumping them onto novices for the rest of the club to be responsible to "raise" to be mature handlers.

You're considering a run at the GNA Chairman position... you need to stand up for the breed, set the DD and the DD handler apart from the rest by virtue of performance and character (both dog and owner).

We've done the increase breeding quantity and train the buyer experiment, and all it does is place a drain on resources and generate "votes" for elections.

We need to maintain the breed in the spirit it was conceived... a breed by the hunter, for the hunter... something that we've gotten away from over the past decade or so...

Regards,

Bob
Last edited by 3drahthaars on Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
3drahthaars
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:49 am

We shouldn't base a "pass/fail" upon the youth or the inexperience of a handler... we MUST base a pass/fail upon an accurate evaluation in accordance with the PO. If a dog clearly failed... it should fail.

That is the correct way and how it should be done!
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: HZP questions

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:37 am

well, since this one is far off topic now...
1. what's the relationship between VDD GNA and VDD Canada?
2. Let's not forget, DD is not the only breed testing under JGHV system, my dog is not a DD. So while VZPO still applies, the style and few other variables are there... The end result from my (hunter's ) perspective should be the same - the game in the bag (and a smile on my face :D ).
vom Dufenshmirtz
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:27 pm

Re: HZP questions

Postby huntinmo » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:38 pm

VDD-GNA and VDD Group Canada are two of the thirty-five VDD Groups. VDD Groups as well as other breed clubs and the JGV testing clubs conduct natural ability and performance tests under the JGHV testing system and all do use the same PO. Judges are encouraged and apprentices are required to participate outside of their own club and area which often gives them at least a sampling of other breeds and of course many have hunted around other breeds over the years. But due to numbers of dogs tested in the JGHV system in North America the people from other clubs get to see a lot more DD's at many of the tests. :mrgreen:
huntinmo
Started
Started
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:51 pm

Re: HZP questions

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:36 am

so GNA and Canada are two independent groups under the German club. Interesting.
I see VDD Canada was started in 1974 and officially recognized in 84, GNA lists 1971 as start date.
How many dogs and people are in both?
vom Dufenshmirtz
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:27 pm

PreviousNext

Return to German and European Testing Systems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests