HZP questions

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HZP questions

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:21 pm

I read VZPO, searched the net and still have questions.
I have never been to HZP, so I am in for a lot of surprises, I expect...

1. Retrieves. I assumed that delivery to hand is required. I now read in some Q&A doc from 2013 (can't recall where I got it from) that within 10 m is OK...
Is it true? How does it affect the score? What score is given if the dog delivers perfectly to hand sitting?
standing? handler yanks the object from dog's mouth? dog drops the game within 2 steps? 10 m? dog puts the game on the ground and is mouthing it?

2. Field. What's expected? the same search and point as in VJP? no birds shot I presume..?

3. Duck blind retrieve. JGV site says the duck is placed on the other shore, regulations say it's placed in heavy cover. I supposed it differs from test to test and based on site and the judges..?

3. Feathered game drag. Any preference duck of pheasant? I've been training with ducks, so unless there's some reason to use phez, I will stick with the ducks.

4. Rabbit drag. Any size restrictions? I have tiny baby rabbits and I have much larger ones...

Thanks all.
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Re: HZP questions

Postby CohanseyDD » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:59 am

1. You can go on the GNA site and download Uli's presentation on Questions on Test Practices. You should also do a search for a more complete version of QTP's elsewhere, as these are what I consider the "Supreme Court Decisions" on things that have happened at tests that are not covered by the VZPO/VGPO.

10 m. is considered a "completed" delivery, meaning you can go pick the game up and still continue testing. Your Manner of Delivery evaluation will go down accordingly, but once the dog drops it...do not say anything...just go over calmly and pick the game up. Same thing if they drop it at your feet.

A proper delivery to hand with no negative game handling by the dog will give you a "10".

2. Same field search as VJP, but add the word "Methodical" to the search meaning they want to see the dog using more of a search pattern than in the VJP. The difference is explained in the VZPO.

3. Each test differs and there is no "right vs. wrong"

4. No restrictions, but I've seen many dogs that wanted to play with a rabbit of smaller size.

Hope that helps.
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Re: HZP questions

Postby Duckdon » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:54 am

"I read VZPO"
It may help if you study the cooperation and obedience parts of the VSPO again. Much of what you are asking will blend into those sections when the final score is issued.
Retrieve is all about obedience and obedience or lack of will dictate much of your HZP score. Train delivery to hand every time and from the same stance to score 10.

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Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:29 pm

CohanseyDD wrote:1. You can go on the GNA site and download Uli's presentation on Questions on Test Practices. You should also do a search for a more complete version of QTP's elsewhere, as these are what I consider the "Supreme Court Decisions" on things that have happened at tests that are not covered by the VZPO/VGPO.

10 m. is considered a "completed" delivery, meaning you can go pick the game up and still continue testing. Your Manner of Delivery evaluation will go down accordingly, but once the dog drops it...do not say anything...just go over calmly and pick the game up. Same thing if they drop it at your feet.

A proper delivery to hand with no negative game handling by the dog will give you a "10".

2. Same field search as VJP, but add the word "Methodical" to the search meaning they want to see the dog using more of a search pattern than in the VJP. The difference is explained in the VZPO.

3. Each test differs and there is no "right vs. wrong"

4. No restrictions, but I've seen many dogs that wanted to play with a rabbit of smaller size.

Hope that helps.



Holy crap :shock: 10 m is considered a"completed"delivery :shock:
I can only hope that this sentence doesn't appear in any translation of VZPO and the local judges handle it like that :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :cry:
THIS IS A CLEAR FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!! if you have any doubts or concerns,put it up in the "Jagdgebrauchshund" magazine under the section "Fragen aus der Prüfungspraxis" Questions about testing and how to judge correctly.
I mean everybody who can read has defenately a clear advantage :wink: :D
VZPO:
(6) Art des Bringens
a)Unter Art des Bringens.......wie der Hund AUFNIMMT,TRÄGT (Griff) und BEIM Führer abgibt! Beim Führer would in my poor englisch translation be delivery TO THE HANDLER!!!!!!!!! Not 10 m away,holy cow :shock:
one pace away would be tolerable for me,but defenately not more!!!!
this is one of the very few clear defined things and continues in section c) where it is repeated again........das der Hund mit dem gefundenen Wild freudig und willig ZUM FÜHRER kommt!!!!

I would really like to get one of these translated versions of VZPO VGPO VSWPO in my hands and read and compare with my own eyes!!!!
Were can I get one???????? I'm willing to pay for it and the mailing to me!
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Re: HZP questions

Postby huntinmo » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:23 pm

The VZPO is available in both German and English on the JGHV.de website. I wonder why they require judges to attend an occasional seminar?
So, it's a 0 or a 10? I wonder why they have all those other numbers inbetween 0 and 10? :puppydogeyes:
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Re: HZP questions

Postby CalB » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:19 pm

Wolgang, you can go agrue with Uli Augstein, the JGHV Director of Testing if you would like but Cohansey described it perfectly and clearly. The dog has to be within "approximately" 10 meters from the handler to drop the game and still pass. This means the dog would get a 3 for such a poor retrieve but PASS. This is on land. To get a 10 the dog must come sit by the handler without over influence and ZERO influence if misbehaving in any way. It is judged as a hunting situation.
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Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:19 am

CalB wrote:Wolgang, you can go agrue with Uli Augstein, the JGHV Director of Testing if you would like but Cohansey described it perfectly and clearly. The dog has to be within "approximately" 10 meters from the handler to drop the game and still pass. This means the dog would get a 3 for such a poor retrieve but PASS. This is on land. To get a 10 the dog must come sit by the handler without over influence and ZERO influence if misbehaving in any way. It is judged as a hunting situation.



OH I will not argue with such an authority and waste his time to explain a poor a$$hole why this seems to be on paper in the english translation of VZPO and not printed in the german version.OK,maybe I'm just to dump to read? As I mentioned in my previous post "wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil" if you can read you clearly have an advantage.
But thanks for the advice and I will do my homework and read VZPO from cover to cover again and maybe I'll find it and than will defenately apologize to everybody for posting such a crap and incorrect interpretation of VZPO :oops:
Might save me some time if you or anybody else would send me an info in which § it is to be found and I will compare with original VZPO.Should be similar at least in §.

Thanks
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Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:00 am

OK guys ,since I couldn't find a rest concerning this subject ,I sticked to the advice to find the english version on the JGHV homepage and read and reared § 15 carefully ,focused and concentrated!
I mean even for me with english as second language it was more than funny and entertaining to read and I almost wettend my pants :lol:
Now I got the idea why there is so many confusions :lol: Is there ANY native american that can understand this translation? I have no glue who is guilty for doing it,but I take any bet there will be americans with german roots or people like D&B who spend alot of time in germany who could do it alot better!
But the fun factor is priceless,that's for sure!!!!!
back to the subject...I mean I had tears from laughing in my eyes but I'm sure my view was clear enough to see every single word and again I could'nt find anything about that miracle 10 m rule :oops: :shock:
Would it be possible,that your info is not coming from VZPO english or german version ,but instead is part of some guidelines someone put on paper after having a Richterschulung?????? (judgeseminar)
If so,since when does an instructor of such a seminar (no matter who the person is/was) set VZPO out of order???? And if the next instructor comes and says well,10 m is a problem since I usually don't have anything to measure correctly with me or left it in the truck,we better stick with 10 paces? Now one judge might be a giant another a dwarf,who's part is it to measure the 10 paces???? Or the next says well 15 is also Ok or no only five m is excaptable?
I could continue with ridicules excamples,but still hope for clarification! serious clarification cause things like that ain't no fun it makes the difference between fail and pass 8) :?
And especially in your country were handlers travell hundreds of miles and spent huge sums to participate,there should be a clear answer and correct judging possible!
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Re: HZP questions

Postby Freeze » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:47 am

First ..... I am a new VDD member and I am certainly not in position to critique Judges or judging.
I have however done a bit of research in trying to gain clairty and determine exactly what to expect as I prepare for my first HZP.

Wolfgang,

I believe that the issue of the game being dropped within 10 meters of the handler is an interpretation of the rules, rather than a clearly defined standard in the VZPO.

This interpretation was provided Uli Augstein during his VZPO & VGPO Question and Answer Presentation in 2013.
This interpretation can be seen in the Q&A Document from the seminar as well as being captured on video with the full explaination.

Also it is important to remember we are discussing a minimum requirement to consider a retrieve completed which is necessary to PASS, as any incomplete retrieve FAILS the dog in the test.

Send me a PM with your email address and I will provide the information I referenced above.


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Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:47 am

CalB wrote:Wolgang, you can go agrue with Uli Augstein, the JGHV Director of Testing if you would like but Cohansey described it perfectly and clearly. The dog has to be within "approximately" 10 meters from the handler to drop the game and still pass. This means the dog would get a 3 for such a poor retrieve but PASS. This is on land. To get a 10 the dog must come sit by the handler without over influence and ZERO influence if misbehaving in any way. It is judged as a hunting situation.


OK my version of judging this case IF THE 10m rule would be on paper!
The score for manner of retrieve is made from the following factors in that order Art des Aufnehmens (the way/manner the dog picks up the game) Art des Griffs (the manner he adjusts the jaw power to get the right grip not squeezing but also not strong enough,to loose and were he grabs the game! ideal manner ower the back of the rabbitt! Art des tragens auf dem Rückweg der Schleppe (the way he carries the game on his way back from the drop point were he found it, to his handler.
Art des Ausgebens BEIM Führer (way of delivery to the handler)
So lets guess the dog picked up correctly had a nice proper grip carried correctly comes straight to the handler,no detours,no hesitation, but dropped 10 m away from the handler ! he drops ONE predicate for manners of retrieve (Art des Bringens) not more and not less!!!!Cause the 10 m.if this rule would be part of VZPO would only be of any interest for Schleppenarbeit which is judged from starting point to droppoint (Hin weg) and from there back to the handler "Rückweg" way back and here he would for this fault drop another predicate for Schleppe not for Art des Bringens (dragwork not manner of retrieve) He didn't complete the drag and this has nothing to do with manners of retrieve!!!! MY SCORE Art des Bringens 7 Haarwildschleppe 7
And one answer to your comment "it is judged as a hunting situation!!!!!!!" I don't know if you have ever been rabbit hunting with ferrets in germany? If a rabbitt gets hit but is not dead I send the dog IMMEDIATELY to retrieve before it dissapears in his whole! If all emerging rabbits are dropped ,dog is sent at the end when the ferret comes out and the warren is empty to "collect" the whole harvested game,so if you judge according to a hunting situation,would you score it sufficient if the dog drops the rabbitt ten yards away from you and it disappears in the hole and is lost and takes unnecessary suffering before it dies? I'M DEFENATELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You also mentioned that the 10 m rule is on land ! What does your UA version oh sorry hit the wrong button :cry: I mean US version of VZPO say how far away can the duck be dropped from the shore in waterwork to pass?
Hope you as one of the most experienced judges in the US with the longest history and knowledge will take the time to explain and get some clarification!
But no matter if or if not we can come to a conclusion,I will bring up this discussion during the next Judge seminar with Uwe Tabel in Aug29 with the perfect fitting title for that day "Fragen aus der Prüfungspraxis" :D
Cause I would honestly feel guilty and uncomfortable if I would vote for a fail in a HZP test and find a co judge to agree,if there would be an unknown mousehole for the handler to escape that tragedy!
But I must also honestly committ,that I would feel way more uncomfortable if I would let a dog pass dropping his game 10 m aw from the handler cause this is anything but sufficient for me!

BTW,what about the 10 m rule in VGP????? Also accepted????
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Re: HZP questions

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:23 am

The difficulty in any testing is to put a score on work that falls between 0 and 10. We give judges the lattitude to discuss and come to a decision. In my experience, a dog that drops game at 10m, plays with game on the return, etc will inevitably fail because this behavior almost always becomes worse as the test goes on...to the point where the decision is clear. On the other hand, a dog that winds up with a "3" in Manner of retrieve will most likely have other scores that clearly indicate that this dog is not a primary breeding dog for the future. Should we be worried if the dog gets a "3" or a "2"? The numbers will speak for themselves.

I have read the VZ- and VGPO in German and with few exceptions, the translation is accurate and in the spirit as written. However, I was quite surprised by some of Uli Augstein's explanations of the VZPO, which seemed for the most part more liberal than I would interpret them. However, his repeated insistence that we remember that we should judge by hunting standards and take the conditions into account is important.
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Re: HZP questions

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:41 am

Wolfgang,

In response to your questions, as it was explained to me in person by Uli...the VZPO is a set of guidlines for us to follow in evaluating the dogs. Further, that it cannot possibly cover every situation that may arise during testing situations. The Questions on Test Practices cover all the situations that have come up in testing and have been ruled on by the JGHV. These are just as important...IMHO...to judging as the VZPO. I read them, study them and try to apply them to handling a dog and evaluating dogs.

Regarding your specific question about the 10 meters and how it applies to the water, the duck would have to be "retrievable" by the handler. For instance...if the duck was dropped 3 m from the bank and the water was too deep for the handler to "reasonably" stand on the bank or slightly in the water to reach it...it would be a clear failure. If the duck was brought onto the shore and dropped approximately 10 m from the handler and the handler was able to walk over and retrieve it...the dog would pass.

I personally expect more from my dogs and don't disagree with your thoughts that the dog should fail, however, I feel I have to apply the QTP's in the situation.
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Re: HZP questions

Postby Wolfgang » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:59 am

OK a friendly person mailed me the list of questions from this judge seminar and i can't believe what I saw especially question 15 contD and 16 :shock: !?
i think it really doesn't make any sense to continue to discuss this here :cry: :evil:
I will bring it up at the judge seminar I mentioned and will hopefully get a clarification there.
Funny thing in this really aweful part for me was I tried to get the picture of the handler who#s dog dropped the duck in waterwork "approximately" 10 m away from the handler and he stood there completely dressed and has to get his duck :D
Or even better "judging like a hunting situation" someone is duckhunting 2° Celcius above zero and his dog drops the duck 10 m offshore and the leaseholder tells him yes buddy you told me the performance of your dog is at least sufficient,so have fun and get my duck :D :razz:

@D&B I agree the spirit and the idea is forwarded in this translation to a certain degree,but question to every US Citicisan who ever dealed with it....how often did you read and reread it before you "thought" you fiquered out what someone tried to express? :lol:
It reminds me of Werner Lamp a german guy who made the weather forecast for AFN in the 70's in Frankfurt :wink: :lol:
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Re: HZP questions

Postby CohanseyDD » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:06 am

Wolfgang,
You're misreading the QTP's or my post. If the dog dropped the duck as you described...it would fail. If you can stand on the bank and reach out and retrieve it...the dog passes.
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Re: HZP questions

Postby vom Dufenshmirtz » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:48 am

Thanks all. I think between this thread and the older ones here, I got my answers.
BTW, Q&A doc clearly differentiates between delivery on land and from water and highlights the 'hunting situation' application.

However, again, it was a shocker to me to discover 10 m drop may represent a pass, I assumed delivery to hand is a MUST.
Good thing I asked. Now I can make some decisions at the test if it doesn't go perfectly.
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